Zhong Guo, Middle Kingdom
Hi.
This topic has blown up over on my flickr group as well.
And I mean blown up. Tempers have flared (mine included) and I think
in some ways it shows how contencious this issue really is between the
Chinese people and the Japanese people.And I think it does show what a wide gap there is between the
cultures, and how strongly people feel about this situation. Through
reading the comments I can deeply see that we are very at odds, and
what Chinese people expect and how the Japanese people view it as of
now is one that no resolution can even be possible. Sad in so many
ways, but also very honest and true.http://www.flickr.com/groups/topic/26438/
Yan
Yesterday I said I was not sure why we were kicking up such a fuss over
Japan “Changing History.” Today after watching the news and the
comments by the Japanese Prime Minster, Koizumi asking China to “Grow Up,” and
hearing the response by the Japanese Ambassador, I have completely
changed my mind about this.
It is a big deal.
Germans don’t have shrines to Nazi Criminals, but the Japanese do for
the kamakazi pilots. Their prime minister and members of parliament
visit the shrine regularly. They are asking China to apologize for the riots when they have not apologised for invading our country.
My grandfather died with a bitterness so deep by his experience during
the Japanese invasion, that it ate up the rest of his life. He never
saw his sister again. My grandmother so open and modern made it very
clear that I should never ever even think of bringing a Japanese man
home because of what their people did to our people. I don’t think that
and I don’t have any animosity to the Japanese people, but I do feel
that the government in Japan needs to apologies. And it’s unfathomable
that Imperial Family should still be figure-heads of the Axis countries. Those who headed the Nazi party were hanged,
those who were figure-heads of Imperial Japan are still imperials in a
democratic Japan. The only reason for this is that the international
community of that time didn’t care about what happened to China, or the
Chinese people. They lacked the respect they had for the Jewish people
and those in Eastern Europe.
I really don’t know why the Japanese government are to call China a
“Scary” Country. We didn’t invade their country and practiced
biological warfare on their countrymen, we didn’t kill over 50% of a
city, did not rape all the women young, old or children as they
invaded, then cut off their breasts. We did not force their women to be prostitutes in army
brothels, nor throw babies in the air and bayonet them. We did not boil people
alive. Those are things the Emperor of Japan sanctioned to do to the Chinese people. Those are the things their
parents and grandparents did to the people of my grandparent’s
generation. And for a country who refuses to admit that is wrong, implies they may do it again. The German Prime minister urged "everyone" to "face up to history so it will not happen again." Japan refuses to do that.
Maybe the truth is at this time, the chaos is precipitated by arguments
over oil, to divert attention away from China breaking the basic law in
Hong Kong again. But it doesn’t change the fact that China and the
Chinese people do have a valid concern and that we do have the right to expect Japan stops minimizing the their atrocities, not change history
and demand that they admit to the truth. Our anger, although badly
channeled and inappropriately violent, should be understood and
respected. If the world didn’t care what happened in my motherland in
1945, they should in 2005.
Yan Sham-Shackleton Online 
wao- if you know anything about yaskuni & arlington you’d understand the obvious difference. yaskuni is a privately funded shrine that currently glorifies internationally condemned war crimes/criminals.
it’s an insult to peace-loving citizens the world over, and a blight on the international reputation of japan. it explicitly states the tokyo trials were “a sham” and that war was “necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors”.
the emperor of japan has even refused to visit since the war criminals that were secretly enshrined in 1978 became public knowledge in 1979.
educate yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_shrine
peace.
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Chinese Comment about the train crash accident in Japan.
I can not read this but…
2005-04-25？:59:43？新浪网友？発表評論 IP:218.62.42.*？
今早看到這个消息，真的是今天最値得高興的事了，就是有点可惜了，死得太少了，在多点就好了，才傷亡200多人，要是光死就200多就好la！！！？
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David
Many thanks for your comment,but
you missed my point.
I understand what visiting means for other nations.
That’s very important,but
my point is that what it means for Japanese people is also important.
( Since you didn’t answer my question, in the following arguments,I presuppose that paying tribute to war-deads is, in general,justified)
A riht wing would argue as follows.
1)The nation is justified in paying tribute to war deads.
2)Visiting the shrine for Japanese means paying tribute to war deads
Therefore
3)The nation is jusitified in paying tribute to war deads.
This argument lack the view point of other nations.
On the other hand your
your argument as I view it would be as follows.
1)Visiting the shrine means insulting for Asian countries.
2)Japan should not do what is supposed to mean insulting for other nation.
Therefore
3)Japan should not visit the shrine.
But This argument seems to miss what it means for Japanese, so the argument should be:
1)Visiting the shrine means insulting for Asian countries.
2)Visiting the shrine means for Japanese paying tribute to war deads.
3)What it means for other nations is more important than what it means for Japanese.
Therefore,
4)Japan should not visit the shrine.
but, if I am correct so far, for this arugumet to be valid,you have to show that what it means for other nations is more important than what it means for Japanese.
Another way-out may be the following argument:
1)A nation is justified in visiting the shrine without war-criminals.
2)Visiting the shrine without war-criminals are justified.
3)If the souls or plates of war criminals are removed, visiting the shrine is justified.
But again, A right wing would claim:
1)War-criminals, being sentenced to death and hung dead, compensated for their crimes,by being prosecuted.
2)We were all wrong but they happened to be the leaders and hence sentenced to death, hung dead for the country, and so enshrined.
3)Visiting the shrine with millions of war deads,14 war-criminals included , for japanese does not mean worshiping militarism nor justifing killing they did, but means paying tribute to soldiers sacrificed their lives for the country.
Therefore,
4)Japan is justified in visiting the shrine as it is.
To refute this, it seems you must show either that some steps in the argument include fallacies or that again what it means for Japanese is more important for other nation.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
As I said before, I’m against Koizumi visiting the shrine.I’m just interested in another argument, your argument, against it.
And I would like to know the answer to my other question: which “specific “international law is Japan violating? Could you specify the name of the international law? Then I can critisize a right-wing argument for still another ground.
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wao- with respect, i’ve tried to understand your points, but it appears that you’ve missed mine. it would be helpful if you didn’t shift yours with each post or introduce other residual points that aren’t germane to my comments.
in this, my last attempt to respond to you, i’ll make it simple by pasting your comment:
“Now, at Yasukuni, millions of souls are enshrined
Soldiers are in essence the ones who must injure and kill people for the country,
In that sense, all of them did a bad thing.
At Yasukuni, millions of souls killed at war are enshrined
Let me ask:
Are families not justified in visiting the Shrine?
Is nation not justified in paying homage to people killed at war for the country?
Do you blame U.S. president for visiting the Arlington National Cemetery?”
1. firstly, you mistakenly conflate all soldiers with war criminals.
2. your use of the term “bad thing” reveals a negligent understanding for this issue’s fundamental distinctions of ‘degree’ or ‘scope’. ie: war in general is a “bad thing”; nanking was a horrific atrocity.
3. i’ve already addressed the obvious differences between arlington and yasukuni- your simplistic comparison reveals ignorance.
i’ll conclude by pointing out that your use of the term “right-wing” is also inaccurate. “right-wing nationalist” is a little more precise; “nefarious liar without any credibility beyond certain narrow circles in japan” is what i recommend.
tokyo governor, shintaro ishihara is not simply “right-wing”. he is at least a “right-wing nationalist”, or to use my term, “a nefarious liar without any credibility beyond certain narrow circles in japan”.
shinshinto’s ichiro ozawa is “right-wing”.
that is the difference of degree & scope.
peace, out.
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David,
If you think I am either a “right-wing nationalist” or not-facing-history-Japanese, you are wrong. I just want to clarify the point since you said “if you, yoshi or any other japanese can’t admit “yes, the ‘class a’ war criminals did do a bad thing”, then you’re adding insult to injury and deepening your country’s complicity in its war crimes. “
You have “corrected” word wao wrote. I think it does not matter as long as everybody understands what he meant since we are not making a constitution or a legal document, right? So hope you take it easy. Or you just want to emphasize the certain group of Japanese is more than “Right-wing”?
Japan has been making huge contribution of ODA to China for number of decades. Still the majority of ordinary Chinese people do not know the significance of Japan ODA to China. In fact, a recent survey shows 75% of sampling from people in China dislikes Japan. And Chinese ballistic missiles are pointing to Japan and some part of world. It seems to be very few % of people in China appreciate Japanese ODA contribution. If…if China and Chinese people take it granted to receive ODA without appreciation, I wonder what the reason behind this is. I felt it’s sad. Money can’t buy friends, I know that. Still, I feel something wrong with this picture.
ODA is not the compensation for Japan’s war crimes. ODA is not only loan but also includes grant and technical assistance. If you want to know statistics, please check the following link.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/oda/summary/1999/d_g2_02.html#c_2_3
Currently Japanese ODA went mostly Asia due to strategic reasons “and Japanese government doesn’t say – sense of guilty”. Many developed countries including Japan use ODA as a tool to influence to recipients as hoping projects generate import of materials and services of private companies from its benefactor. I personally think ODA should go to the poorest countries. Is China still qualified recipient for ODA? Yes, I think so since most of Japan’s ODA goes to the west part of China where the area is relatively poorer than coast-side. However, when I see China is buying spree for Russian’s military technologies and holds vast amount of foreign currency reserve, I think China must do something for the poorer area before building up military power. Anyway, it was good move that Koizumi promised to increase ODA for Africa, even though England suggested so.
David, I am quite confused what you said about the SDF(Self-Defense-Force – Japanese military) in Iraq. SDF is not allowed to carry weapon like heavy arsenals since SDF is meant to act only for self-defense of Japan. Do you think SDF can kill Iraq’s insurgents with Karate-chop? If it’s yes, then SDF is a murderous weapon. SDF is protected by Australian and British Army. The activities they perform are logistics of materials and building hospital, school, etc, which are exclusively non-combat operation.
The Japanese constitution has phase as following. “Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.”
SDF is always controversial within Japan since SDF is in reality war potential. That’s why Japan called them SDF. Ehh..you, right.
Japanese government want to change this phase to allow SDF can act as military force in case of American force requests so at certain circumstances.
Japan uses plutonium for water reactors to generate electricity. Japan does not use plutonium to create A-bomb since Japan is the country to promote A-bomb free world. I do not get your point of saying there is large stockpile of plutonium in Japan. Yes, it may be dangerous since it can be converted into A-Bomb fuel and make nuke within 2 months with current Japanese technologies, some source claimed.
Yoshinori
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David
I quote what you said.
”a film asks visitors to ponder the following statement:
“The soldiers fought for the nation. Can you say they did a bad thing?”
Here the film seems to be talking about soldiers in general.
And it seems to be David who “mistakenly conflate all soldiers with war criminals.”
Let me quote, you said just after the sentence above:
“if you, yoshi or any other japanese can’t admit “yes, the ‘class a’ war criminals did do a bad thing”, ・・・
I think what you need to do is not label somebody as nefarious liar nor emotionally condemn someone as ignorant, but constuct a logical argument against what you call nationalists with credibility beyond certain narrow circles . So far, it seems you have not suceeded.in refuting nationalists in Japan and China.
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Draper,
Mango’s comment just right after you posted was sharp & so superb. I nodded and saluted to his comment with wine.
I did not think about much of your implication of forgiveness at first sight. When I first looked at “is there a word in japanese which means to forgive?” posted at April 26, 2005 12:15 PM, I thought “What damn question you raised!, wake up, Draper! I can send a Japanese dictionary if you want so that you can drape pages and pages against a window.”.
After all, I was the damn one. I am neither a Christian nor a Buddhist, but I recognize that forgiveness is the act of the highest value human can present.
Everyday, the feeling does not surface above my skin while I work, sleep, watch TV, enjoy meeting friends, and drink beer. I read anti-Japanese demonstration news or something related to China-Japan rows. Anger and frustration stung my heart. The feeling stays deep inside of my heart. However, when I meet a Chinese or a Korean in person, the feeling crawls over my body. The feeling is the sense of guilt that comes from my knowing Japanese did terrible war crimes onto millions of innocent people in their countries.
When I read the story of an old Japanese and Hailey Xie yesterday, I cried. Stream of tears come out of my red eyes without warning, I cried loud.
http://www.haxi.org/
Making Friends by Hailey Xie
Because I found Hailey forgave the old man.
It opened my inner door of my heart leading to my soul. Silver smoke of guilt escaped. There were still plenty more of the feeling stayed inside. However, I felt my body was lighter.
Suddenly, Draper, your comment echoed my mind and realized the comment made much more sense to me. I know you are not god, but the message became so powerful to me.
Someday I wish to meet someone release me from the feeling like this old man’s story and to convey apology and gratitude to the person.
Some may take this as a Japanese indirectly begging for foregiveness. I am not begging. Hatred still exists even after 60 years. But eventually foregiveness will prevail, I hope.
Also someday I want to be the one to foregive when someone hurt my feeling.
Thank you, draper! you’re the man! By the way, are you a man or a lady??
Yoshinori
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Sorry, Draper, time of post was not posted at April 26, 2005 12:15 PM (which was your earlier post), but Posted at April 27, 2005 02:11 PM
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thanks Nori for understanding what i try to convey to all.i dont agree with mango.Yan knows the importance and the great responsibility that is freedom of speech more than anyone.freedom of speech is not a right it is earned,unfortunatly all to often thru bloodshed.it is precious and should not be abused.forgivness does make you lighter Nori,but no person should have to beg for forgivness.just ask,if someone cant forgive simply by being asked then i would not pursue their forgivness.your right Nori im not a god.if i were,i would live on mars.mars needs guitars!!!!!!!!!!
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Thoughts on visiting Yasukni.
Yasukuni is the place where more than 2 milloins souls of soldiers killed at war are enshrined, and people are justified in paying tribute to war deads.
1 Japanese people are justified in paying tribute to soldiers killed at war for the country.
On the other hand,
Yasukuni is the religious shrine found by citizens. Visiting Yasukuni violate the article 20 of the Japanese constituiton and hence,
2 The Japanese govenment is not justified in visiting the Srinne.
Yasukuni is the place where 14war criminals are enshrined and hence
3 Asian people are jusitified in objecting to the souls of war-criminals hounoured at Yasukuni.
The state has an identidity through history, and the govenment has resoponsibiity for WW2.
Japan has have political responsibitiy to listen to what Asian people say on this matter. So
4 Japan is not justified in caliming that visiting Yasukuni is just a domestic matter.
On the other hand, Yasukuni does not mean what they think it means. It is not a symbol of militarism for Japanese. So,
5 Asian people are not justified in claiming that visiting Yasukuni is the reason to object against Japan on other political matters.
If the govenment visiting Yasukuni violates an international law, Asian nations has stronger reason to obeject to the govenment visiting the shrine.
But San Francisco Treaty is not a good reason to claim that Japan violates the treaty if she visited Yasukuni, because the treaty has no effect on how people and the state act toward the”souls “of war criminals.
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David,
I saw your first report on Ohmynews, Korean’s internet news site.
http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?menu=A11100&no=223592&rel_no=1&back_url=
As you said you deeply loved Japan, I wish you post the report to a Japanese blog site so that many Japanese aware of history issues with different point of view and discuss with you. Many Japanese are happy to talk foreigners from the all over the world. Most part of your story was consistent to what you said. I felt bit strange Kenji survived on Hong Kong’s street with Japanese military flag on his backpack, though. You were right saying Kenji was very rude.
The Ohmynews readers’ comment seemed to be nothing related to your article. I guess there was technical problem on the site. I did not dare to leave a comment. Congratulation on your report!
Yoshinori
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Chie on April 23rd, please be careful about using “ignorant” when you are making your statement, ok? The reason is that there has actually been very involved discussions in English media every time Japan has made such an expression of regret because Japan has used a lower level form than apology and each time Korea and Beijing and even Taiwan on occasion have objected strongly. They feel that the Japanese government’s usage is meant as a signal to their people that really the complaint is not of the best quality but we will go through the motions and give them a sop to their wounded nerves. You see, how deeply and precisely outside eyes look at this matter of the apology? Only this time, has the New York Times failed to review its own archives where they noted that Japan has consistently given a third rate expression of regret so newcomers to this matter are carrying this banner of well Japan is not so insincere and how unreasonable to demand an 18th apology when Beijing wants Japan to finally mean it. Even the last and strongest apology that Koizumi is mimicking was not the strongest apology term in the Japanese language and at the time, it was criticized even though it was still the furthest that Japan has gotten. Isn’t it a sick joke that we waste so much time trying to get a criminal to take another step forward? We spend so much attention on those who do wrong and their excuses and we hardly ever note those who do right and don’t broadcast that fact internationally.
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Chie on April 23rd, also please be careful when you mention the ODA for two reasons (1) China is not the largest recipient of Japanese ODA although China suffered the most from Japan’s war crimes so it doesn’t seem that Japan is using ODA to reimburse victims and (2) the ODAs are tied to Japanese recipients receiving the majority of the contracts and this has been in an issue in South East Asia more than in China so it is something that non-Japanese know about so they do not consider the ODA’s to be charitable acts that Japanese should feel proud about.
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Chie on April 23rd, I am sorry to address your post again. I think it is inaccurate in appearance to assume a tone of woundedness and frustration that the Chinese are so unreasonable and longwinded as if they have been getting a free meal from Japan for these years since the war. This is actually not the case. Japan followed the US lead and refused to trade with China even though other countries did not do so so it is clear that Japan did not feel any contrition with regard to the ruins that China was in after Japan and those ruins exceed the destruction in Japan just as the starvation level in China exceeded Japanese hunger during and after the war. China did not enjoy care packages of Hershey’s chocolate.
Therefore, be kind and generous and patient and cost yourself the time to compare the foundation of Japan’s self-righteousness with the same components in the countries bloodied by Japan.
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Chie on April 23rd, The beauty of Yasukuni and the loving treatment of the sacrifice imparts the understanding that the people on the list acted for the good of Japan. However, the war criminals behaved like gangsters really. Is it just to say that they don’t belong there because they were executed as opposed to be killed in battle? The plans they carried out were in no way honourable and so that changes what Yasukuni is about – it includes that only Japanese human rights matter and not Asian human rights also. In my household, we also think that the Yasukuni Shrine is Japan’s domestic matter however the inclusion of the war criminals and the LDP visits to the shrine simply contradict the apologies. So feel free to glorify the war criminals and I will feel free to see it for what it is worth and factor that into the context of the expressions of too bad, so sad.
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Chie on April 23rd, please cite references to where the Japanese were loved in South East Asia at the time of the war. Not Okinawa, not Taiwan, not Phillipinese, not Indonesia, not Thailand, not Malaysia, not India which was next on the list and was starting to be bombed. Offer your sources and I will then offer my counter sources. Thank you.
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Chie on April 23rd, would it help to not feel attacked if you put the situation in a Japanese only context? Therefore, when you write that “we both lost families” can you see that the victims are not interested if the murderers lost members of their raiding party during the commission of their crimes?
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Chie on the April 23rd, you know the Chinese culture is different from the Japanese culture. Chinese don’t hinge their intrinsic value upon appearances so they would pierce your disappointment and lowered opinion of Chinese by having the opinion of you as your regard was not so valuable nor was your understanding of what makes China valuable very deep at all if your purported good opinion is destroyed by the protest behavior.
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Chie on April 23rd, Those pictures are indeed a bad sign and the Japanese reaction must be similar to ones I have seen by Japanese who watch Koreans getting too excited at parties. I don’t like the behavior because I hate unauthorized touching. It’s really bad. I agree that the protesters would have not had a sore point for Japan to hook onto as camouflage if they had been 100% peaceful. However, Japan took the peaceful protest in HK and misreported it and attributed Shenzhen photos to the Hk protest. Isn’t that unfortunate for everyone’s understanding? The position must be taken that the protesters are not right to destroy property. However, in the US, court verdicts are often televised and the victim’s families are not in control. It is better to have your frustration in private but you must study victim behavior if you need to be convinced that actually this is fairly typical worldwide especially if the victims are from the lower income groups.
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Chie on April 23rd, putting aside your justifications, I repeat for emphasis that the physical behavior of the minority of the protesters is bad. It was not tens of thousands that did this, it was a small number of the tens of thousands who marched and the marchers were a small percentage of the entire population. If it had been tens of thousands, the damage would have been more than what has been provided by all the news sources. It is still bad. Even though some protesters may have tried to clean up the destruction of those who did the destruction. It is still wrong and it is not justified. It may come from a natural perhaps non-malice base but the actions are bad and they are wrong. In your Chinese grief and sorrow, why would you care about a restaurant window or a car? What you want is your serenity back. You want your Chinese friends and family back. You want your unpoisoned land back. You want your cultural treasures back. You want the credit that belongs to Chinese civilization back. You want your intellectuals unassassinated. You want your artists and poets to have their Chinese names and not the forced Japanese identity. You want that it NEVER happened at all. That you would never have even seen the documentation that sullies your minds.
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Nori, since you mention Tibet in this discussion of Chinese and Japanese behavior. Why do you think Germans haven’t defended themselves against their behavior by redirecting attention to Jewish behavior in Israel against Palestine? Why don’t Germans redirect formerly occupied France’s anniversary remembrance by pointing at France’s colonial record or for that matter England. Why do you think in a murder trial, the victims’ families do not relinquish their right to say what the crimes did to them?
Also, if you want to discuss Tibet, please offer what you know about the history of Tibet.
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hmm, does Glutter hate Japanese? I didn’t really notice her upsetness that during my quick scan of this very long comment page. I don’t hate Japanese but I won’t be fed what’s being dished out by the dissembling and the textbooks. I’m not going to accept it that the victims weren’t hurt, that the bad guys didn’t do it, that the bad guys are the victims and why won’t the victims quit breaking face and just get over it. Forget that. I don’t like it when the bad guys hurt someone and deny (of course) then circulate and exaggerate sloppy behavior by the victims – stop bleeding all over my clean floor! Isn’t that what bullies do? Get everyone on their side, shift the blame to the victims? Did China do that? Or did Japan do that?
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Glutter, the outbursts are really not clear or evolved at all. Take this matter outside of yourself and use the filter – if these were crimes committed in Japan by Japanese against Japanese, how would you as a Japanese treat this.
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What about this issue aggravates this unphotogenic Kraken in Chinese? I hope we feel better soon.
Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart [cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31] do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
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Jennifer,
About Tibet, I am not sure how you interpreted what I said about Tibet responding to Yan’s comment.
My point of the comment was how people felt when they were paying homage. I reiterate what I said, that “The reasons Japanese pays homage to the Shinto Shrine which honors war deads are to pray for deads rest in peace and pray for no more war…. Japanese pays homage, they purely think of their ancestors, not the victims of their ancestor’s crime. I guess the same thing to Chinese, too.” By the way, I want to stress that Chie and I already said 14 Class war criminals there better be relocated to somewhere. In addition to the statement, I would like to add the Japanese government officials should not officially and privately pay homage to these Class A criminals unless a class A criminal is the direct ancestor of a government official, then the person may be ok to visit there privately. I can see there are lot of obstacles for such things to happen since religious organizations are protected by law and it is a private property.
I knew there was the invasion of Tibet by Chinese Army. I knew there was killing of innocent people in Tibet. That’s all I need to explain that I understood a Chinese or Japanese person still have a right to pay homage to the soldier/the ancestor who participated in the invasion for praying no more war. I want you to be aware that I did not intend to criticize Chinese for Tibet in my previous comment.
I do not have an answer to questions regarding to that Germans haven’t defended themselves because I do not know how Germans apologized, compensated, behaved to French and other countries which were suffered by them. Your point is Japan and Japanese should not redirect attention to victim’s behavior, right? What do you think Japan began to compare their own textbook and 20 other countries’ textbooks? I thought Japan made a good point suggesting China should also look at their textbook. You may say Japan redirect attention from their problems. Probably it is the government intention. But it may be good move for Chinese people, too. What do you think? You are right to say an agressor should not redirect attention to a victim in general. Personally I think the contents of Chinese textbook have nothing to do with the contents of Japanese textbook. Even though less than 1% of Junior high school children expose to the nationalist view of Japan history, the problem still lie on the fact the government approved these textbooks. I think Japan needs to revise textbook more fairly and accurately so that Japanese children get to know the history of Japan better. It may be difficult judge the range of fairness and accuracy since 100 people have 100 subjective views of one incident of history. But they should work hard on it to receive the recognition of one of the best textbook in the world if possible. Hope Japan makes a wise decision. I also have to make a point that there are many sensible professors in Japan writing good textbooks and the majority of teachers in Japan did not select the nationalistic textbook.
I do not want to argue of the Tibetan history in general with you because it was not the scope of my previous discussion except the invasion and killing. I wonder why you asked me how much Tibetan history I knew. Let’s say you find you beat me in the knowledge of Tibetan history, then what you would want to say? I am pretty sure I know lot less than you do about Tibet.
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I have questions to Jennifer.
Have you read the textbook in question?
Which part do you think should be corrected?
What should be added to the textbook?
How many students do you think have actually read the textbook in question?
How many students do you think know Japanese educational system?
What do you think is “the strongest apology term in the Japanese language.”
Why you say “Koizumi is mimicking “—you sound like saying he was not really apologizing.
What form of appolgy do you think is adequate.
Let me point out the fact that Japanese are not against demonstrations:they know demonstration is a useful means in democracy and they are willing to understand what the issue is.
They are against the Chinese police just standing by while students are throwing stones at the embassy and Japanese restaurants They are against people who assaulted Japanese studets in China just because the students are Japanese. Good motivation does not justify the bad acts at all ,just like Japanese policy during ww2 does not justify what they did.
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Jennifer, your post on May 4, 2005 07:02 AM, “Isn’t it a sick joke that we waste so much time trying to get a criminal to take another step forward?” Please tell me the name of the criminal you referred to and what kind of crime the criminal committed?
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“China did not enjoy care packages of Hershey’s chocolate.” As far as I know Chinese govenment recently said she appreciated ODA. If someone does not enjoy Hershey’s, maybe Swiss or Belgian is better option. 🙂
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Jennifer, you confused me saying “Chinese don’t hinge their intrinsic value upon appearances”. I’m sure you meant “Japanese hinge their intrinsic value upon appearances”. It is true there is ample evidences Japanese care about appearances if you take a glimpse of arts like Ikebana, Food, fashion, etc. However, Japanese do care about value and principle behind them. I do not like to generalize culture, which can’t be to summarize into a simple word or a statement.
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Jennifer,
Bullies get everyone on their side… Did Japan force or ask the world to take Japan’s side right after the demonstration in April and did the world agree to her demand or request? I thought Japan simply asked for apology and compensation to China for failing to protect Japanese delegates and businesses violating of the international law. I support that was the right thing to do. Wao explained very well so I do not want to repeat on mentioning Chinese police inactive behavior and bashing on Japanese individuals. Foreign minister Li said “The Chinese government has never done anything for which it has to apologize to the Japanese people, The main problem now is that the Japanese government has done a series of things that have hurt the feelings of the Chinese people on the Taiwan issue, some international issues including human rights, and especially in its treatment of history.” and said the demonstration was formed spontaneously. Now Chinese media claimed anti-government group organized the demonstration. I wonder why Li has not apologized Japanese counterpart to explain the reason of demonstration is not 100% on Japanese side even though real motivations of majority of demonstrators were out of nationalism and pure anti-feeling against Japanese and the government were afraid of the power of nationalism. Do you really think Japan behaved as a bully? If you think so, you are up-hill to fight against recent opinions/views in western media. By the way, the floor of my house is very clean, too. I guess we have something in common.
Unfortunately sometimes a victim can turn into a bully without realizing it happened. If you see the Michael Douglas’ movie “Falling Down”, you’ll see what I meant. It’s a nice movie and I believe it based on a real story in USA.
“A divorced engineer for the defense industry gets stuck in L.A. traffic and finally snaps. He gets out of his car and begins a walk through central L.A., where he encounters various levels of harassment, which he learns to deal with by acquiring weapons along the way. His actions attract the attention of a retiring cop, and he gets involved with the case, following the engineer’s path toward Venice, where his daughter is having a birthday party.” summary by Rob Hartill.
LDP, Koizumi’s party, recently won two seats of elections consecutively even though 75% of people disagreed with Koizumi’s handling foreign policies. I am very afraid Japan may be going too far into right and may cause unwise decisions again on Asian countries relationship. Then Japan would be perceived as a bully again. I am longing to see next PM and cabinet members that can take more reconciliatory approach toward neighbors. However, younger generation of parliament members is, unlike older generation, more assertive and more candid, and fed up with apologizing.
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speaking about bullies…the tactics of wao & nori are illuminating…i have a question- please answer truthfully:
were the two of you educated in japan, by any chance?
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It’s good that japanese and chinese can actually have a semi-civil discussion. I think it’s tragic that even in 2005 we have to fight over events that happened >60 years ago, when most of us weren’t even alive.
I think we can all agree that the japanese textbook revisions were wrong, and the shrine visits by Koizumi are also wrong. And we can also agree that violent protests are wrong. Further we can also agree that the chinese government have not been truthful in their own textbooks neither, BUT this in no way shape or form excuses the japanese government’s revisionism.
Can we all agree on the above points? I really don’t think our positions are that far apart. As I said, most of us are so removed from the events of WW2 that it is largely academic anyways. It absolutely does not make sense on either side to waste so much emotions reopening old wounds.
I’m chinese myself, and it won’t make me popular among my friends and family to say this…. but I think we have made our point-we should let this issue drop. It’s never easy for anyone to admit wrong doing- let alone apologize for something done by one’s ancestors. If Japan was bent on re-making the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity zone, then we should raise heck about it. But I seriously doubt there is such a move afoot. Koizumi is probably trying to appease a small band of aging nationalists. Prior to these events many japanese have been studying chinese because they rightly saw that their future lies in economic investments in china. I think that’s the right way to move forward.
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Actually for me the biggest irritant in this whole affair is not that Koizumi is kicking sand in the chinese’ faces. It is that Koizumi is kicking sand in the chinese’s faces while hiding under the americans’ skirt. If Koizumi really wants to be the swaggering nationalist hero then why doesn’t he kick out the americans? How does he pretend to “honor the japanese warriors” if he is constantly kow-towing and kissing up to the americans massas? That’s the part I just don’t get. China is not occupying Japan. China is not twsiting japan’s arms this way and that in trade talks. China is not shanghaiing japanese troops to fight in its imperial adventures. It’s the US that’s doing all this. You want to assert your national spirit then stand up and say FU to the US- not to china.
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Icemilkcoffee
We come from different cultures.That’s why we should understand each other. that’s why we need talking and discussing here.
Maybe Japanese lacks understanding on how deeply Chinese people are wounded by ww2.
That’s why I want to listen.
Maybe Chinese lacks understanding on how Japanese think of education and how Japanese think of paying respects to people who sacrificed their lives for the country.
That’s why I want to talk.
Maybe I am irrational on a specific matter. That’s why I want somebody to correct.
Someone might misunderstand what someone else said, that’t why I think we are here to get deeper understanding.
I think it is immature and also dangerous to think Chinese or Japanese are such and such in nature.
The goal of this discussion should not be winning of the one-side but should be that of both sides.
The followings are what I think about the issue.I’m not sure Icemilkcofee will agree or not.
I think Japanese govenment should construct a nonreligious memorial for war-deads killed at the battle fields, so anyone–buddhist or christian– pay tribute to wardeads. That means war-criminals are not included in the memorial.
The government cannot remove the souls of war-criminals from Yasukuni because it has no authority over what the religious group should do.
I also think we should have a proper channel to deal with history issues.
We can let Asian people participate in editing a history textbook, and let people choose which one to use, or Japanese and Asian historians can work together making a side reader. The side-reader must not be based on propaganda but facts and truth., and we make it as a requried subject.
We may abolish the textbook authorization system., but we cannot let the government write the history textbook. In Japan, basically it is not the government but people who choose the way how childeren are to be educated.
I welcome criticizm.
David
I repeat what I said before. Labeling or agitating is not important, what is important is reasoning.
Could you tell me where you think I was educated and why.
Jennifer
The reason why I asked is because I think those are most important questions.
BBC reports, one student at Peking University said, “The students realise they were being used as a political tool,” “but they still believe their point of view was right.
But I wonder how he can make sure their point of view was right when they had not read the textbook in question and had not known Japanese educational system.If somebody has not read what he is criticizing, how can he be right?
Moreover I really want to know what needs to be corrected and added in the textbook in question.
The new textbook in question is not available to most Japanese. So they don’t know what Chinese people are angry about.
What do you think is adequate form of apology ?This is a important question.
I’m sorry,– it is not first rate apology.
I’m deeply sorry,–that’s not enough
I appologize— You are not serious.
I apologize from the bottom of my heart.— You don’ t mean it
I also apologize from the bottom of my heart —You are just mimicing.
We express a sense of deep remorse—That is only words.
I express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology —That is not the appology we want.
Japanese government has apologized no less than 17 times.
The government has admitted it has caused great sufferings to Asian people during ww2
Chinese people do not seem to be satisfied. What does it show? It may show how indignant Chinese people are,.but it seems to me that this is the endless game. That’s why I want to know what you think an adequate form of apolgy is.
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wao- you can’t have it both ways. you’ve asked questions, i’ve answered enough of them. unless you’re a coward, you can answer my one very simple question:
were you educated in japan, by any chance?
it’s a logical & rational enquiry, that’s all- no need to get paranoid or emotional.
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Icemilkcoffee,
你好嗎? I agree with you on points you made on May 6, 2005 05:51 PM. The biggest concerns for these whole issues from my point of view are whether Chinese Gov’t and people can forgive Japanese for WWII atrocities and left things in the past and move on. Well, I am not asking for them to forget what happened.
Yap, Chinese language becomes more important than ever for Japanese collage students. As a matter of fact, I took Chinese as a second foreign language for two years when I was a collage student. I forgot what I learned, unfortunately.
Even though USA bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japanese people gave a lot of credits to USA because they helped us rebuilding Japan and Japanese recognized the real cause was Japanese expansionism. Japanese still remember what A-bomb brought us and have peace memorials praying no more war. As I said, Younger generation of parliament members become more assertive and more candid, I am sure Japan gradually will demand the leveling field to USA for discussing various strategic issues.
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David,
I begin to see your comments agitating.
I do not like “Speaking of bullies…”, which implied wao and me as bullies. Worse, you are asking a personal question with the attitude of doubting the sincerity of our response.
I am happy to response on even personal question to certain extent if asked properly with respect.
Second, “unless you’re a coward” in the message to wao remind me of a “Back to the future III ??” or a western movie having a scene like “Are you coward? Unless you pull a gun now, I shoot you first.” I guess you watched the same movie as I did. Please reread your comment to check if you were agitating and give me a smile 🙂
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Wao,
You said what I wanted. Even though some of your opinions are different from mine, they are rather minor. My objectives of discussing with participants here is the same as yours.
I don’t know you personally and don’t know where you live. It does not matter to me as long as we have common objectives and internet. Thanks.
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Jennifer,
If my comments to you were intimidating or made you angry, I apologize. 对不起. I would like you to know where I stand on these issues.
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Yan,
Thanks for allowing me to participate this blog. 太谢谢你了
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David
Fisrt I sometimes act like a coward if it helps settle the matter peacefully.
Secondly, what logical conclusion related to this topic do you want to infer from the knowledge of where I was educated?
nori
Thanks. I wish I could write English as well as you.
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nori- never saw back to the future III…by that time the story was pretty predictable, sort of like your evasiveness..or japan’s avoidance of its “genocidal past”, as the april edition of the far eastern economic review, a conservative western publication, recently noted….
but i did see “eternal sunshine of the spotless mind”- did you? it’s great, a girl doesn’t like her memories so she goes to a doctor to have them erased…it reminds me of you- like a guy oblivious to others because of some operation…>;^)….
wao- thanks for confiming you’re a coward….cowards are afraid of the truth and shield themselves with lies, or violence, to protect their inferiority. sort of like the japanese gov’t, don’t you think? hey, but it’s all good, ne? cowards also seek each other out- looks like you’ve made a friend with nori!….>;^)
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David, that’s rude. I believe both wao and nori have tried to show you respect, discussing the issues, yet you attack them personally.
Sort of shoots your credibility. You can’t articulate or explain your reasoning to others, so you attack them personally. Pretty weak.
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David
Thanks for your posting.
Firstly,I don’ t think “acting like a coward” is the same as “being a coward”
Secondly, you look like very angry.Maybe I said something rude to you. Quote the sentences that made you angry. We can discuss the matter in a civilized manner.Or you can keep calling me a coward, a liar, a bully, inferior, ignorant, violent or whatever, but does it solve your problem?
As I said before, we come from different cultures, that’t why we need talking.
What seems to be difference between us might be just differences in the way we express things or in the way we communicate or in the way we understand things.
We are differnt individuals. Each person has his/her own purpose and value in life. We should respect his/her purpose unless his/her purpose violate the law. You can give reasons why someone should not hold the view he/she has, but you can’t just force him/her to hold the same view as yours.
I’m not so well in English as to talk in a proper way. I’d be glad if you point out the proper way.
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tom- if you’d been paying attention, you’d understand my frustration. your comment is a pretty cheap swipe considering you’ve not been participating in this discussion. hit and run is not very becoming – stick around and test your opinions, if you can. I have and will continue to do so if i think it’s worthwhile.
wao- dialogue in good faith depends on honesty. you ask questions, i answered them. you however, didn’t and became defensive and evasive over one of my very simple questions.
a dialogue also depends on listening to others. your repeated statements over the number of apologies the japanese gov’t has made and comparisons between yasukuni & arlington suggest you haven’t listened and are not interested in logic or facts, but in you’re own opinion. that is extremely unproductive and offensive.
on a general note, it’s interesting to observe how japanese apologists inevitably try to obscure the issue of the japanese gov’t’s guilt regarding their war crimes. rather than address facts that contradict their position, they avoid them, introduce vague notions or resort to defensive accusations. i guess, on some level, it’s understandable- this truth is a bitter pill to swallow.
however, it’s ultimately about taking responsibility for one’s actions. the damage and insult they cause by avoiding responsibility, not only to other nationals (although that is paramount), but to japan is extremely regrettable. they bring shame to japan’s international reputation and shift the issue of atonement to another generation. or worse, they invite a war that would bring enormous suffering to japan and beyond.
at least we that recognize the japanese gov’t’s guilt can take comfort in knowing that we have the support of international law and of international scholars who will not be dupped by any churlish attempts to revise or obfuscate the issues. history and justice is on our side. japan must atone for its “genocidal past” or continue to live on the lap of its benefactor….the u.s.
so, to bring it all back home, as the title of this thread states, “japan needs to apologize and start admitting to the truth”.
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Not hit and run, david. I wasn’t referring to the content of the conversation. I was referring to your tone. I can understand frustration at not communicating clearly, particularly where language is a barrier, but calling people cowards and openly mocking them is childish as hell.
But if you want to play silly games and be a smarmy dickhead, fine. Funny, though, since you’re a musician, not a political scientist, not a legal scholar, not a historian – simply a musician with misplaced zeal and an inability to listen to what other people are saying. I’m surprised that wao and nori have tried to engage you as long as they have. Perhaps they don’t detect your tone in the translation.
Being zealous is easy. No gray area. Being disruptive is easy, too, as you’re proving now. Being constructive and tactful is more difficult.
By the way, all, david’s website: http://www.sooperlovers.com/
david, if you wish to engage in further dialogue on this issue, my email is x95lee@yahoo.com. No need to waste further space on glutter with this tripe.
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I apologize to all parties for my last comment.
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tom- nice try, but desperation has overcome you. too bad you can’t engage on the substance of the issues- at least we know cowards of your stripe don’t lack the zeal that fear engenders.
you can reach me, a post-graduate student of international human rights law, by the way, at dikdav@hotmail.com, if you dare. and don’t feel obliged to post your qualifications- they’re woefully apparent.
and next time, do try some tact and intelligence- spare glutter from your own sad displays of inadequacy…the topic of this post is “japan needs to apologize and start admitting to the truth”…i suggest that you attempt (at least) to address it and not your own personal issues…there are other less public forums for that type of therapy.
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Tom,
With lots of respect to you, I will follow your wish; I don’t want to post my comment on this David’s harassment issue anymore in Glutter. However, I want to say what I have to say. This is my last. I guess I said that before somewhere. Ummm.
David,
If you’d been paying little more attention on your own comments, you’d understand my frustration. Your last comment was a pretty cheap even though you’ve been participating in this discussion quite few times.
If you take a look at the flow of comments starting oblivia on April 25, 2005 08:34 AM through david April 25, 2005 09:46 PM, at that time, oblivia commented China mostly because she really cared of China and I post the comment saying I agreed with her statements. David, you keep coming back to Japan’s atrocities. Then oblivia told you “It is a mistake to switch the focus of this debate onto Japan.”, and however you still focused on Japan right after olivia’s comment. It did prove you did not really listen to oblivia and me.
A dialogue also depends on listening to others. Your repeated statements over and over made me exhausted. Most of your comments can be summarized into one statement, which is Japan must apologize institutionally and must atone for its history. I guess that’s was the only thing you wanted to say. That’s very valid statement and the statement was the core of this topic. The latter half of your second last comment had nothing to do with what Tom argues but repeated your favorite subject “Japan’s not facing to history.”
Wao tried to discuss with you about Yasukuni in different angles in each time. There are definitely recurring questions with additional information because it seemed to be both of you countered the other of saying missing points.
You mixed up with some nationalist behavior of Japanese government and Wao & me. I show you why I think you did.
Just pick up some statements.
I said;
“We all knew and discussed zillion times that Japanese did horrible crimes in Asia. Chie knew about that, too.” on April 24, 2005 01:35 PM.
He(Hu) should have asked Koizumi for compensation to individuals who suffered during WWII even Government-level compensation issue was settled a couple of decades ago if its one of top issue for his people.. April 27, 2005 12:43 PM
Wao said;
“Furthermore, I maintain that Japan should apologize, formally, in writing to the Chinese people.
In my opinion, we need to face to history and atrocities at war not because we should blame the other country, but because we should fully understand anyone can be irrational and brutal when a war happen and that we should never make a war happen again.” April 27, 2005 05:47 AM
You said:
“but i did see “eternal sunshine of the spotless mind”- did you? it’s great, a girl doesn’t like her memories so she goes to a doctor to have them erased…it reminds me of you- like a guy oblivious to others because of some operation…>;^)….” May 7, 2005 09:42 AM
You haven’t listened and are not interested in logic or things we commented, but in you’re own opinion. That is extremely unproductive and offensive. Yes, Japanese gov’t tend to minimize/delete unwanted part of history. However, there are many Japanese citizens who opposed to the gov’t actions. And you know that.
I used words & phrases you used for commenting to Tom because most part of your criticizing me can apply to you back.
Now, I do not really care whether you understood my points. Only regret was I wasted my time on you.
Regards,
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nori- but did you see “eternal sunshine of spotless mind”?…very interesting, desu yo!…>;^)…
ciao
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