Zhong Guo, Middle Kingdom
Hi.
This topic has blown up over on my flickr group as well.
And I mean blown up. Tempers have flared (mine included) and I think
in some ways it shows how contencious this issue really is between the
Chinese people and the Japanese people.And I think it does show what a wide gap there is between the
cultures, and how strongly people feel about this situation. Through
reading the comments I can deeply see that we are very at odds, and
what Chinese people expect and how the Japanese people view it as of
now is one that no resolution can even be possible. Sad in so many
ways, but also very honest and true.http://www.flickr.com/groups/topic/26438/
Yan
Yesterday I said I was not sure why we were kicking up such a fuss over
Japan “Changing History.” Today after watching the news and the
comments by the Japanese Prime Minster, Koizumi asking China to “Grow Up,” and
hearing the response by the Japanese Ambassador, I have completely
changed my mind about this.
It is a big deal.
Germans don’t have shrines to Nazi Criminals, but the Japanese do for
the kamakazi pilots. Their prime minister and members of parliament
visit the shrine regularly. They are asking China to apologize for the riots when they have not apologised for invading our country.
My grandfather died with a bitterness so deep by his experience during
the Japanese invasion, that it ate up the rest of his life. He never
saw his sister again. My grandmother so open and modern made it very
clear that I should never ever even think of bringing a Japanese man
home because of what their people did to our people. I don’t think that
and I don’t have any animosity to the Japanese people, but I do feel
that the government in Japan needs to apologies. And it’s unfathomable
that Imperial Family should still be figure-heads of the Axis countries. Those who headed the Nazi party were hanged,
those who were figure-heads of Imperial Japan are still imperials in a
democratic Japan. The only reason for this is that the international
community of that time didn’t care about what happened to China, or the
Chinese people. They lacked the respect they had for the Jewish people
and those in Eastern Europe.
I really don’t know why the Japanese government are to call China a
“Scary” Country. We didn’t invade their country and practiced
biological warfare on their countrymen, we didn’t kill over 50% of a
city, did not rape all the women young, old or children as they
invaded, then cut off their breasts. We did not force their women to be prostitutes in army
brothels, nor throw babies in the air and bayonet them. We did not boil people
alive. Those are things the Emperor of Japan sanctioned to do to the Chinese people. Those are the things their
parents and grandparents did to the people of my grandparent’s
generation. And for a country who refuses to admit that is wrong, implies they may do it again. The German Prime minister urged "everyone" to "face up to history so it will not happen again." Japan refuses to do that.
Maybe the truth is at this time, the chaos is precipitated by arguments
over oil, to divert attention away from China breaking the basic law in
Hong Kong again. But it doesn’t change the fact that China and the
Chinese people do have a valid concern and that we do have the right to expect Japan stops minimizing the their atrocities, not change history
and demand that they admit to the truth. Our anger, although badly
channeled and inappropriately violent, should be understood and
respected. If the world didn’t care what happened in my motherland in
1945, they should in 2005.
Yan Sham-Shackleton Online 
okay i should really be eating breakfast and doing some work. but i wanted to comment about this.
i agree that Japan should apologize. in the past, the japanese government has done so. and if the PM wants to keep visiting yasukuni, then at minimum they need to lean on the shrine (which is private) to disinter the class a war criminals.
but that’s not enough. apologizing is not enough. what would be enough would be for japan to recognize that it was not just the ‘militarists’ like tojo that made the war and atrocities possible. it was the hierarchal, unquestioning nature of japanese society. and that, is still not something that japan as a whole has faced up to, probably because the crushing push to conform is still very much alive.
germany faced up to their crimes as best anyone can, i think. not perfect, but still there are limits. and they didn’t hang all the nazis either. every time you see the space shuttle on tv, remember that it was nazi scientists who provided the basis for the american space program. in many cases, they were the same scientists who knowingly used slave labor to build their rockets in germany.
but i doubt that will happen.
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what i meant was, i doubt japanese society is going to self-scrutinize.
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The Japanese government has never apologized. Korzumi did as a “citizen” did so when he visted China. It’s not institutional. The Imperial family have never uttered a word about it. And they just turned down the appeal for the comfort womeen be compensated in their courts.
But where is the equviliant to the nuremburg trails for the Japanese criminals?
The Japanese society probably won’t self scruntinize as they don’t even know the truth.
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“But where is the equivalent to the Nuremburg Trials for the Japanese Criminals?”
They took place after Nuremburg, and were called the Toyko Trialx. Procedurally, very much like Nuremburg.
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/tokyo-trials.html
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Yan, I agree with all that you said.
I think the Chinese would have done much better in the long term in terms of respect from the international community if they’d demonstrated or march in peace.
Them violent protests sure have the attention of the media and the spotlight on the past, but they’re not looked favorably by the people who really mattered in this situation, the Jap govt. Plus, it levelled up chinese’ infamous reputation of being uncouth country bumpkins. Sorry, I’m seeing this from the PR point of view.
Then again, can you really fault them for behaving this way?
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I agree with your point about the violence but I don’t agree with your point about “the people who really matter” being the Japanese government.
They don’t respect us, our country or history otherwise they would not continue to “beautify” history. They would respect the people who died and not continue to pay respect to war criminals.
Even if we marched in peace they would not respect us. We are not here to gain “respect” from people who do not have any for us. I think we should shame them even more or put them under pressure from the international community. I truly believe no one should ever bow or try and gain respect from people who don’t have any for you in the first place.
yan
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the timing of these anti-japanese protests are rather odd. i suspect the PRC is trying to distract the chinese populace away from the taiwan-issue and a cooling economy by pointing at japan.
if i’m right, then i expect the controversy over taiwanese independence will be revisited by Jiang Zemin right when the bad loans at CCB and CBC come to light.
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hello, my name’s david & i just came across this site. congratulations to glutter for the blog nomination.
“They took place after Nuremburg, and were called the Toyko Trialx. Procedurally, very much like Nuremburg.”
actually, the tokyo trials differed significantly from nuremberg- there weren’t accusations of genocide made against japan as there were against germany. consequently, the degree & scope of the verdicts handed down differed. this has caused some resentment:
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/japdeny/tokyo_trial.html
great discussion, by the way
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Hi David,
I find the discussion quite interesting, too. Above I was speaking to process, not charges brought, and not identity. Just similarity in terms of procedure.
Clearly the Tokyo Trials were not as effective at adjudicating the guilty.
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Hi.
This is very interesting, as somehow this topic has blown up over on my flickr group as well.
And I mean blown up. Tempers have flared (mine included) and I think in some ways it shows how contencious this issue really is between the Chinese people and the Japanese people.
And I think it does show what a wide gap there is between the cultures, and how strongly people feel about this situation. Through reading the comments I can deeply see that we are very at odds, and what Chinese people expect and how the Japanese people view it as of now is one that no resolution can even be possible. Sad in so many ways, but also very honest and true.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/topic/26438/
Yan
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wow, interesting little debate going on over at Flickr. One of the greatest dangers is that the new generation of Japanese are very poorly informed about what happened in the past, and textbooks tend to paint a much too rosy picture of their actions.
Fast forward to today, the Japanese people are only seeing a rising ecnomic/military powerhouse in China, and with the threat and the images of the violent protests, the effect on the Japanese public as well as the mis-informed Chinese public is pointing to more tension and animosity between the old foes.
On a side note, it’s scary with the wealth of information technology today how ignorant so many people are on issues. I’m starting to agree with those who say the internet tends to reinforce ingorance because people can choose the “facts” and information that they agree with and tune out the rest.
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I shouldn’t generalize ;)…the internet has obviously done much more to contributing to the truth than it has against…I guess what I mean is prejudices are more easily enforced
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Yes, seems like some folks are better able to pick and choose the facts that reinforce their argument; whereas, broader access to information is certainly a good thing, and to a more objective mind can lead closer to truth.
Good point.
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I think Koizuimi apologized today, by the way. Check up on that.
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Hi, I hope you don’t mind if I, a Japanese woman, state my POV here.
First of all, Japanese government and the Emperors have apologized officially many times–well, at least 17 times according to the Times;
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-41-1575322,00.html
I wonder if you’ve been just ignorant or been put under some sort of information control.
In addition to that, Japan has provided about US$30 billion ODA fund for China as a part of compensation although the Chinese government does not let its citizens “face up to the truth.”
What more do you need? What do you mean by “institutional”? Do the PM and the Emperor have to go on their knees and beg for your forgiveness?
Secondly, it’s not fair to describe Yasukuni as a Nazi-shrine, though I personally think that the war criminals should be removed from the list (yes, the shrine only has the lists of the names of the people who died in the past wars) because they did not die fighting in the war but were sentenced to death in the court and duly executed after the war.
Every country should have the right to pay homage to the people who sacrificed their lives for their country. Probably in your mind all the Japanese soldiers are crazy, evil rapists/murderers, but they were not. They were actually loved in many areas of South-East Asia.
We both lost our families to the war. It’s the war itself to blame, not the already dead soldiers. Why can’t we just leave it at that?
Thirdly, don’t go assuming that we are ignorant of our own past without actually reading any of our textbooks. I, for one, learned pretty much about Nanking massacre and all the atrocites the Japanese army did during WWII in history classes and felt really awful and ashamed about it. And I always have respected China for its history and culture, but I am not so sure anymore.
You said “Even if we marched in peace they would not respect us. We are not here to gain “respect” from people who do not have any for us. I think we should shame them even more or put them under pressure from the international community. I truly believe no one should ever bow or try and gain respect from people who don’t have any for you in the first place.”
So you can go on vandlizing like this because we don’t respect you? Don’t these pictures “scare” you?
http://blog.odn.ne.jp/shanghai/
Hatred breeds itself. We both have to breathe deep and calm down here.
Please do not justify violence in any way if you want to run a blog about freedom of speech.
BTW, Japanese kids have made an interesting Flash animation in an attempt to communicate with the Chinese people and clarify the Japanese standpoint;
http://www.uploda.org/file/uporg80399.swf
The English is bad and so is the music, but hey.
They are in the process of translating it into Chinese.
Ironically, the vast majority of the Chinese people have no access to the net, and the ones who have it won’t be able to see this neither, due to their heavily censored version of the internet.
(Doesn’t TypePad have the option to hide the posters’ e-mail addresses from the generated HTML? If they do, why don’t you use them? Don’t feed the spammers!)
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Madam,
Sorry I don’t quite have time to read your whole post and answer at this time.
I only got the part where you asked “don’t these pictures scare you?”
Let me give you a link
http://www.tribo.org/nanking/
Don’t these pictures scare you?
Sorry. But let’s get some perspective here.
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And I am going to say something here that is not PC. Is not what people who have read this blog for a long time would expect to hear from me.
In the last two days, listenning to the “Japanese” side and all their explainations on flickr and on this blog has only increased my personal anti-Japanese sentiments against the Japanese people.
Until now. I only had it for the government and their refusal to apologise.
Hate doesn’t feed hate. Ignorance and refusal to admit responsibility. Excuses and a lot of patriotic bullshit feeds hate. It feeds mine anyway.
As I said over and over again. I have never heard a German person defend the Nazi regime the way the Japanese defend theirs.
I am getting to the point that I feel like I might want to throw a brick at something too because as far as I can see, “they” just don’t get it.
Yan
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And of sorry, as a Chinese woman this is MY Point of View.
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“Every country should have the right to pay homage to the people who sacrificed their lives for their country. Probably in your mind all the Japanese soldiers are crazy, evil rapists/murderers, but they were not. They were actually loved in many areas of South-East Asia.”
THEY WERE ACTUALLY LOVED IN MANY AREAS OF SOUTH EAST ASIA???
No, in my mind not all Japanese soilders are crazy, evil rapists and murderers, but in my mind. YOU’RE crazy for feeling you should have the right to pay homage to the people who sacrificed their lives to invade my country, destroy my culture, and committed war crimes that were never persecuted and expect to come of like a reasonable human being.
Because you don’t. You sound like a neo nazi. Beccause in Europe the only people who feel they should have the right to “pay homage” to Nazi soliders are them. In France, Germany, and Italy it is outlawed to buy and sell, use or promote Nazi symbols and parephenlia (sp) because you know why? People in Europe understand what happened at a time was a crime against humanity. Because they understand that those people cannot be respected, and because they understand the were wrong.
I do not want to engage you in any more conversation. I do not want you writing on this blog. I do not want you ever appearing here again. I am digusted, disturbed, and very very angry right now.
You can make all the excuses you want somewhere else.
It’s not welcome here.
Just like a German person would never ever be welcome here to say that Nazi solders were loved by people in Poland as well.
I never ever knew how this is how Japanese people saw things. I actually thought for the most part people in Japan were not like the hardliners in their government. I think I am wrong.
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Just a quick point, Yan. Not meant to in any way to be caustic.
I think when the Japanese woman above referred to being scared by the pictures of Chinese protesters vandalizing Japanese places of business, holding up x-ed out photos of Koizumi and the like, and you responded with pictures of Nanking, I think it confuses the issue a wee bit. The protests are something that happened over the last three weeks or so. Nanking happened over 60 years ago by people who are most probably dead.
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I know this is a sensitive issue to you, so if you feel like I’m treading on sacred space, tell me to shut my mouth (or stop typing, or whatever …) and I will.
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tom- thanks for clariying your point re: the tokyo trials. there were also technical procedural differences as well, ie: the selection of judges. that said, your point about the ineffectiveness of their adjudication is a good one, something (ironically) that both the japanese and chinese sides point to today as a continuing source of rancour. either way, the trials have been accepted as international law by legal experts of various nationalities, including japanese. it’s important to note that japan was found guilty in this international court of committing class a war crimes.
chie- the issue of an apology has not been settled. by ‘institutional’ i take yan to mean that it should carry the official endorsement of the diet (japanese parliament) and be conveyed in writing, which is a fundamental customary norm for any official communication between two or more sovereign nations. japan knows this: that’s why they followed this procedure when issuing their written apology to the south koreans:
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9810/08/korea.japan.01/
the figure of “17 times”, or 18 now with koizumi, may be true, but none of them carry any official gov’t authorization, from an international legal standpoint.
as for any monetary compensation, as the second largest economy in the world and the richest by far in the region, japan carries certain obligations to provide aid to china and other developing countries. nothing about compensation has ever been explicitly addressed or resolved between the two countries. ‘tacit’ agreements are not valid unless both (or more) parties signal their acceptance.
chie, the japanese gov’t is looking pathetically childish. i hope you & others will consider your gov’t’s position and apply pressure to offer a written apology and work together with korean and chinese academics to agree upon an acceptable version of history as france and germany have so successfully done. but, if japan does this, it may call the chinese gov’ts bluff. does the chinese gov’t really want this issue resolved?
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Deep Breathe.
I have read what K, Tom, David, and Yoamum (sp) wrote. Chie can write what she wants. Only because all of them are being reasonable and that’s a more positive approach.
But she is the only person ever I have ever heard that feels that people in South East Asia loved the people who invaded. I don’t know if she has read one too many romantic mills and boons type romance novels about war heros who fall for a native girl during the second world war or what. It’s a bit akin to how those novels also have scenes where women really enjoyed being raped and really actually wanted that to happen.
Yan
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yan, there’s always going to be a contingent that believes the romantic history.
something in their lives will change them towards bitter truth.
but koizumi did apologize. jst not in the way we wanted.
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Glutterbug, My name is Yoshi and I am Japanese. You should apologize for Chie by calling her Nazi. The reasons Japanese pays homage to the Shinto Shrine which honors war deads are to pray for deads rest in peace and pray for no more war so that their sacrifice means something worthwhile to them. Many of war deads sacrificed their lives for their country whether they liked or not. Many of war deads were educated in the midst of growing nationalism and were forced to fight. Great many were buried well before the WWII. We all knew and discussed zillion times that Japanese did horrible crimes in Asia. Chie knew about that, too. Speaking of invading China and destroying her culture, when Japanese pays homage, they purely think of their ancestors, not the victims of their ancestor’s crime. I guess the same thing to Chinese, too. Do you think son/daughter whose father was a soldier died in Tibet invasion also prays for innocent Tibetans when he/she prays their father? Of course, there are plenty of Japanese citizens including myself oppose for their leaders to go to the Yasukuni Shrine due to the fact they do not want to hurt the feeling of other Asian countries.
It was not appropriate for you to reject her to send you a response. I read your second comment to allow her to make a comment. But I still want to say to your rejection to Chie. Do you own this Glutter? Is there any freedom of speech? She was trying to tell her own perspective because she seemed to care of China-Japan relationship. If there is no communication beyond as you brushed her off, China and Japan will never understand each other. I am not saying to treat a foreigner as a guest, but pays at least respect when someone like her makes a non-cursing comment. If you want to hear whatever please you that will be fine with me, too. You have a freedom of speech. I just want this site as clear of hatred so that this respected site can keep the quality of voices. If Japanese blog does need a history education, why not volunteer to educate them by posting a comment. The constructive discussions have to happen somewhere sometime.
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Thank you, Yan, for giving me a chance to speak up again. I apologise here for not clarifying my point enough, making myself look like a sucker of romantic porn novels in your eyes.
Believe me when I say I never, ever, justify the atrocities the Japanese army did to your people. As I said before, I learnend much about what our ancestors did with visual aids which were actually too vivid for a 10-year-old. And I never read war novels that beautifies Japan in WWII because they simply suck. BUT I have a great uncle who fought in Indonesia and Phillipines, who revisited the countries to make personal atonement some years ago. He had expected to be thrown stones at, but the locals generously welcomed him, telling how the Japanese soldiers were friendly and the kids loved them.
Deep breathe here again. This doesn’t mean ALL the soldiers were like that in ALL areas of Asia. And I know the fact that some small portions of the locals loved the soldiers personally does not, never justify the act of invasion You have every right to hate the Japanese who invaded your country. But yan, please, take a moment to think about the Japanese oldies who lost their sons and husbands to the war. Their hearts hurt too. Don’t they have the right to mourn? Do we still look like war-mongering, blood-thirsty bunch of monsters?
I don’t personally think it’s right for the PM or politicians to visit any kind of shrine officially, because it violates the separation of gov and religion, nor the tacky beautification of war meets my ethics. But… ARGH, It’s heard for me to explain Yasukuni clearly enough in English, so I’ll post a link to somewhat neutral opinion here;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10450-2005Apr22.html
Again, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. Please don’t hate the Japanese because of me. It’s just that whenever I meet Koreans overseas, what I get from them right after introducing ourselves is “Do you know what your gramps did to our grannies?” “You owe me an apology” kind of accusation. And when that happens, all I can do is swallow my opinion and just apologise. So I must have been a bit nationalistic as a rebound and taken out my frustration on your blog, for which I’m truly sorry.
I think this “rebound” is what the Japanese are suffering right now. Believe it or not, the most prominent teachers’ union in Japan is ruled by extreme leftists, and we have been taught again and again that we should be ashamed of ourselves and feel guilty about our past. Some of the highschools even bring their students to Korea as annual field trip and force the kids to kneel on the ground and bow before the old Koreans. Many of the Japanese, including myself, are just getting so tired of this masochistic view of history. I hope Chinese people would understand this, and correct us when we go too far, in a more rational way.
The JP kids have updated the Flash animation and are trying to post the link to Chinese BBSs. You may find faults in it, but consider it as their way of starting a conversation between people.
http://www.geocities.jp/baud_2005/tx310.html
Again, I’m sorry for being tactless, fuelling your hatred toward Japan. However, I don’t believe your response to my comment was tactfull either. You have this really low boilling-point, which made me kind of “scared” again. You don’t like me, so you ban me. Where’s the freedom of speech? Correct me what you think I’m wrong about so that I can be a better neighbour.
Sheesh, I wish I can talk to you face to face, over a table of dim sum or sushi or something. I mean really.
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Excessive nationalism is frightening, whether it is in Germany, Japan or China.
If we are honest with ourselves, we must recognise that Japan’s attitude to its past (whatever we think of it) is no threat to peace in Asia. I don’t think we can say the same about the rising nationalism in China. It is a genuinely frightening prospect.
Also, let’s not forget that China is far from honest about its own history. The party that killed millions of its own people during the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and the Tiannenman “incident” is still in power today and still lying about the truth.
Aggressive nationalism, fueled by government propaganda, in a country that is spending more and more on its military each year. I find that frightening, not least because of the lessons learned in Germany and Japan. We should learn from the past, not repeat it.
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Oblivia,
I totally agree with you. It is true that Japan is no threat to Asia right now, but remember she has hundreds of US military bases across the country. If any Asian country tries to harm Japan or US military bases in Japan, US will immediately conduct pre-emptive attack on it.
Japan is not an independent country like China. She has been blindly following US initiatives on almost all international issues. I feel very sad about it. However, many Japanese still remember how the WWII occurred and ended. Some Japanese worry their gov’t would become too nationalistic if US pull out all military bases. I believe if Japanese can keep self-defense force budget under 1% of GNP in future as they do now, Japan will continue being no threat to Asia without US bases. They should write the budget limit in their constitution.
Japan has another problem regarding to nationalism, there are so many right-wing organizations and some of them has connection to the LDP, a leading political party. If there is excessive foreign pressure on domestic/foreign policies or being isolated in surrounding countries, right-wing influence on politics will increasingly become larger and dangerous. I think the same logic applies to any country.
Chinese will be economically and militarily superpower within 20 years. No doubt about that. Chinese had been superpower in a couple of thousands years except last 100 years. It is like taking a nap. When I was kid, my father said “China has population
7 times larger than Japan, that means there are 7 smart Chinese per 1 smart Japanese. They will beat us in every ways very soon. So you have to study 7 times harder than them.” Of course, that made me felt I had no-win situation. Now Chinese population grows more than then times larger than Japan! I am glad to graduate from a school long time ago. Well, it is up to China to guide where Asia is going and I believe China, which has vast resources in terms of human intelligence, will do it well.
Japanese be Japanese, Korean be Korean, and Chinese be Chinese. We must not forget our heritage and culture without being excessively nationalistic. Better yet all be Asian. Someday, there would be the day we don’t have to feel up and down every single time when “International Media” write an editorial about us. That means “International Media” become regional and “Asian Media” become comparer ably fair and without bias. What I want to say is Asian countries prosper and become nations dependent each other with trade and investment and people going/coming across seas and lands meet each other, we don’t have to be nationalistic, we can be pan-Asian, or internationalist.
Yoshinori
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Yan/Glutterbug,
This is my second day of visit to this site and just found now you own this site. I guess I should not post here any more. I will visit to check here sometime in future.
Yoshinori
/bye
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chie- i find it peculiar that you avoid addressing a few of the issues raised previously.
1. the issue of a legitimate apology. as stated before, the japanese gov’t has never officially apologized in writing for their war crimes in china. there’s an obvious difference between a verbal expression and a written one.
2. the issue of oda, or offical development assistance, has never been jointly considered in any written communiques (including the japan/china communique normalizing relations in 1972) as payment in lieu of compensation, primarily because oda payments are generally regarded as loans. so, any claim asserting that oda equals compensation is just one more example of revisionist history.
3. japan was found guilty in an international court of committing war crimes. as your washington post article makes clear, the yaskuni shrine includes 14 ‘class a’ war criminals, individuals directly responsible for such atrocities as nanking. why not simply remove them? the shrine also includes a museum where a film asks visitors to ponder the following statement:
“The soldiers fought for the nation. Can you say they did a bad thing?”
if you, yoshi or any other japanese can’t admit “yes, the ‘class a’ war criminals did do a bad thing”, then you’re adding insult to injury and deepening your country’s complicity in its war crimes.
as for oblivias fear of nationalism- japan’s duplicitious circumvention of article 9 from its constitution and repeated failures to take concrete steps to atone for its history is just as alarming as what the chinese gov’t has done. japan has sent troops to iraq without any un sanction, it has stockpiles of plutonium and established a large standing army of so-called self defense forces, all this while claiming to forever renounce war or maintain any type of military force.
my wife is japanese and i deeply love japan. that’s why these denials and attempts to revise its history hurt so much. i want my children to be strong enough to admit they’re wrong and proud enough to ask for forgiveness when it’s necessary. the truth always wins out in the end.
http://www.princeton.edu/%7Enanking/html/nanking_gallery.html
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David,
It is a mistake to switch the focus of this debate onto Japan.
The burning issue here, to my mind, is not Japan’s seeming reluctance to be full and frank in accounting for past sins. That’s a side issue to be considered separately, for we should not let Chinese hooligans force a debate on their terms.
Instead, we should let the thugs’ actions speak louder than their words.
The rising tide of violent, nationalistic disturbances in China has nothing to do with Japanese atonement anyway. It is a symptom of serious problems in the fabric of modern China; a country struggling to hold itself together as its rapid growth drives a wedge between urban and agrarian, rich and poor, the Party and the people.
Nationalism seems the only force capable of shoring up the divide — and it is one the government is not afraid to exploit, for fear the people’s discontent will otherwise find expression in the Party’s own failings.
This is why the rest of the world is watching.
We should reserve the same treatment for the Japanese as we do for the Chinese hooligans: judge them by their deeds. Japan’s postwar history has been spent in peace and democracy, she has given billions to her neighbours and set a brilliant example that has formed a model for economic growth across the region.
To return to the issue of Japan’s treatment of its history, I think it is interesting to look at how another country, America, treats its own role in the war.
The attack on Pearl Harbour is viewed by most Americans as one of the most egregious acts of war, yet in truth it was a surgical strike carried out on a military target with few civilian casualties and comparably few casualties at all given the scale of the loss to the Americans in terms of naval power.
Compare this to the atomic bombs dropped on civilian populations at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which are treated as an unfortunate result of Japan’s own stubborness: they were necessary to convince the Japanese to surrender. How many American textbooks say that two bombs was one too many? How many ask students to consider whether they really needed to be dropped on densely populated cities to demonstrate their awful capacity for destruction? How many books ask students to consider whether nuking the Japanese was a war crime?
The war is long over, let us forget it.
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oblivia- without the rule of law, war will prevail. the japanese gov’t needs to realize this and atone for its war crimes. Once it adheres to international law and establishes respectful relations with its neighbouring countries, it will free itself from the burden of china’s legitimate indignation and be welcomed as a leader on the international stage.
those who fail to heed the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. let us never forget.
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I’m not sure that China can claim the moral high ground on the subject of observing international law!!
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oblivia, i’m not china, nor are all the international experts who admonish japan to own up to its history.
http://www.princeton.edu/%7Enanking/html/experts_and_academics.html#PrincetonAcademics
why not join them?
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how can anyone here accept an appoligy on behalf of anyone killed in a war.my great uncle was killed by the japanese in papua,i could never presume to accept an appology on his behalf.how about we let our great leaders appoligise for the way their sons and daughters never fight in the wars we are all expected to die in.
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For a blog which claims to be promoting free speech, the only person who seems unwilling to listen to others opinions is Yan, promptly banning Chie when she expressed an opinion which differed from Yan’s blinkered view of a strongly nationalistic China. When the Chinese government does not own up to its own past and the atrocities it committed in the name of progress and staying in power, how can it expect Japan to do so. Nationalism, especially in recent years with the advent of the mass-media, has been effectively used by individuals to drive wedges between people who lived contentedly together for years, so that they can profit from this new division. A common trait among all these people promoting nationalism is that in doing so they all become rich and powerful.
In Japan, as far as I’m aware, the government does not block access to sites that criticize it, yet China blocks access by its population to massive amounts of information and snuffs out criticism with aggression, beatings and prison. Nationalism is an effective tool to manage a nation and the best tool to defeat it is communication and education – not education in the wrote learning and repetition of facts from books, but education in the understanding of cause and effect. Do you think that Beijing would have allowed us Hong Kongers to stage the same type of violent protests against the reinterpretation of the basic law or Tiananmen…
I in no way condone or ignore the Nanking massacre, yet in war tragically this type of thing happens. The US murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children and condemned many many more to a lifetime of pain when it dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. The men who invented those bombs and the pilots who dropped them are acclaimed and venerated heroes in the US. Where is the US apology to Japan for this war crime, where are the financial payments to those who have suffered. Atrocities have been committed by nations throughout history yet the victor writes or rewrites history to portray itself favourably. As the US is now so religious here’s a quote for u. ‘Yet he who is without sin cast the first stone’. None of are without sin, the best we can hope to do is to prevent wars and atrocities happening in future – yet we can’t even do that Rwanda, Darfur… worse still we effectively ignore them because they’re happening somewhere else or we don’t listen to their voices because they’re saying something we don’t like of want to hear. As Yan deletes or blocks people she disagrees with I expect this post to be deleted or disparaged, sad.
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My granduncle was tortured and killed by Chinese at Shanhai incident. My pen-pal was tortured and killed at Tibet. They think foreigners as non-human.That’s why Chinese people hit, and kicked Japanese students like dogs while demonstration was going on.
Chinese government has never appologized, and
Chinese people has never appologized and,
Chinese people has never campaign for making the government appologize.
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David
I have a question, you said,
“The soldiers fought for the nation. Can you say they did a bad thing?”
if you, yoshi or any other japanese can’t admit “yes, the ‘class a’ war criminals did do a bad thing”, then you’re adding insult to injury and deepening your country’s complicity in its war crimes.”
Now, at Yasukuni, millions of souls are enshrined
Soldiers are in essence the ones who must injure and kill people for the country,
In that sense, all of them did a bad thing.
At Yasukuni, millions of souls killed at war are enshrined
Let me ask:
Are families not justified in visiting the Shrine?
Is nation not justified in paying homage to people killed at war for the country?
Do you blame U.S. president for visiting the Arlington National Cemetery?
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wao- somehow you’ve overlooked a significant point: the term ‘class a’ war criminals. This denotes those 14 individuals who have been found guilty by an international court. yaskuni currently celebrates these, arlington doesn’t.
i’ll repeat what i wote before- the japanese gov’t needs to realize this and atone for its war crimes. Once it adheres to international law and establishes respectful relations with its neighbouring countries, it will free itself from the burden of china’s legitimate indignation and be welcomed as a leader on the international stage.
those who fail to heed the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. let us never forget.
http://www.princeton.edu/%7Enanking/html/experts_and_academics.html#PrincetonAcademics
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Let me repeat the question:
1)Are people justified in paying homage to war dead?
2)Is nation justified in paying homage to war dead?
Then I’ll add a new question,
3)Is Koizumi justified visiting the shrine if the souls of 14 a-criminals are removed? If the answer is yes, why?
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Interesting Debate!
I have a few thoughts to add.
(1)
Class A War Criminal — Remember that the victors are the ones that judge the defeated. Robert McNamara – the former Secretary of Defense (of the U.S.), and one of the men who helped plan the firebombing of Tokyo and helped strategize the use of nukes against Hiroshima, et al stated “If we had lost the war, I would have been hung as a war criminal.” See the DVD – the Fog of War, released 2004.
(2)
Yan, I love your blog, but your blind and automatic response to one of the posters conflicts with your stated goal of freedom of expression. No one thinks the Japanese were in the right for the atrocities of WWII, and they should apologize, formally, in writing to the Chinese people. However, as someone who currently lives in Mainland China, I doubt the average person on the street would ever be aware of such an apology, the powers that be have too much invested in creating a new version of Chinese history – one in China is the victim of exploitation (always) and never an agressor (i.e. attacking Vietnam for expelling the Khmer Rouge).
(3)
The Japanese do need to apologize. However, by honoring the class A war criminals – Japans PM sends a message that the country is not too ashamed of its past.
(4)
Former President Ulysses S. Grant send blankets that had been used by smallpox victims to Native American Tribes, the great founder of the Turkish republic was responsible for the Armenian genocide — a genocide which inspired Hitler. The emperor who unified China did so in one of the bloodiest wars of unification ever fought in ancient times. All of these people are honored by their countries — Just a thought. Take from it what you will.
I do ask one thing though – If this makes you upset, please take the time to think about what I’ve stated and respond with a logical and well thought out response. I don’t respect or respond to people that flame.
Ciao
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David
Let me make one thing clear.
I’m against the PM visiting the shrine because it violates the division of religion and state.
Furthermore, I maintain that Japan should apologize, formally, in writing to the Chinese people.
In my opinion, we need to face to history and astrocities at war not because we should blame the other country, but because we should fully understand anyone can be irrational and brutal when a war happen and that we should never make a war happen again. It is ridiculous to say Japanese are cruel and belligerent in nature, and it is also rediculous to say Chinese,or American are cruel and belligerent in nature.
But it seems that you need another arugment to insist that people should not visit the shrine just because it enshrines 14 war-criminals out of 2 millions war dead.
A rightwing insists that war-criminals were hung dead, and thereby conpensated for their crime and that Japanese were all wrong but they happened to be the leaders.People visit the shrine to appreciate the peace for which soldiers sacificed their lives.And what visiting the shrine means for Japanese is more important than what it means for other nations.
I don’t think this is good argument: what it means for other nations is also important, but I also think Japanese people are justified in paying tribute to soldiers killed for the country and justified in wanting the nation to honour them.
So it seems that you need to argue that what it means for other nations is more important than what it means for Japanese people.
You seem to be saying visiting the shrine vilolate international law. If so, that’s a good reason for the PM not to visit. I want to know which international law.
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Hi,
This subject has been debated over and over again.
First of all, “Japanese don’t admit past war crimes” is CCP propaganda.
I have checked major Japanese history textbooks and they all mention about it.
None of Chinese I’ve talked have never actually read the books.
These days, western medias are getting critical to Chinese side because they found out that China was the one who did not admit past and on-going atrocities.
In fact, thousands of Japanese refugees were massacred by Chinese after WW2, and we all know that China is commiting ethnic cleansing in Tibet.
“Germans don’t have shrines to Nazi Criminals, but the Japanese do for the kamakazi pilots. Their prime minister and members of
parliament visit the shrine regularly. Germans don’t have shrines to Nazi Criminals, but the Japanese do for the kamakazi pilots.
Their prime minister and members of parliament visit the shrine regularly. ”
Yasukuni is like Arlington US.
But all shrines or any religious facilitis in Japan are private property.
Japanese government can’t infringe freedom of religion which is against law.
And the kamikaze pilots are not war criminals.
Even CCP claims that only 7 of A class war criminals are the problem of Yasukuni, so you are distorting story.
“I really don’t know why the Japanese government are to call China a “Scary” Country. We didn’t invade their country ”
Chinese nuclear forces, 2003
Base number : Headquarters :Province
Brigades
Likely targets
51: Shenyang : Jilin
Tonghua (DF-3A and DF-21A)
Dengshahe (DF-3A)
Japan, Korea, Okinawa, Russia
53 :Kunming :Yunnan
Chuxiong (DF-21A)
Jianshui (DF-3A)
Philippines, India, Vietnam
53 :Kunming :Yunnan
Chuxiong (DF-21A)
Jianshui (DF-3A)
Philippines, India, Vietnam
54 :Luoyang: Henan
Luoning (DF-5A)
Sundian (DF-4)
United States
Hawaii
55 :Huaihua: Hunan
Tongdao (two DF-4 brigades)
Hawaii
56: Xining :Qinghai
Datong (DF-3A)
Delingha (DF-4)
Da Qaidam (DF-4)
Liujihou (DF-3A)
Russia
India
Ballistic missiles. China operates approximately 120 ballistic missiles of four types: the DF-3A, DF-4, DF-5/5A, and DF-21A. Each missile carries a single nuclear warhead.
China is gradually retiring its DF-3A medium-range ballistic missiles after more than 30 years in service.
The two-stage, liquid-fueled DF-4 long-range missile is cave-based and rolled out for launch from a transporter-erector-launcher (TEL).
The DF-5/5A, also liquid-fueled, is deployed in silos and elevated for launch. The exact number of DF-5s is unknown but estimated to be 20. In June 2000, the Pentagon reported that China had built 18 DF-5 silos; the U.S. National Air Intelligence Center reported that as of 1998, China’s deployed DF-5 force had “fewer than 25” missiles. According to one senior administration official, China stores its nuclear warheads separately from the missiles. Older DF-5s are being replaced with
longer-range DF-5As, an upgrade that may be completed around 2005.
The two-stage, solid-propellant DF-21A is carried in a canister on a TEL and supplements the aging inventory of DF-3As. China has converted some DF-21s to conventionally armed missiles.
China is modernizing its missile force as part of a program begun nearly two decades ago that features mobility, solid fuel, improved accuracy, lighter warheads, and a more robust command, control, communications, and intelligence (C3I) system. A new missile, the three-stage, solid fuel, mobile DF-31, is the program’s mainstay. Its range is estimated at 8,000 kilometers, and its circular error probable (CEP), or accuracy, at 300–600 meters for its single warhead. At maximum range, the DF-31 may be able to hit Hawaii and Alaska, but not the continental United States. The last of three DF-31 test flights was conducted in November 2000 and involved decoy warheads traveling over a shorter flight path. The DF-31 will likely be targeted primarily against Russia and American bases and facilities in Asia. It is expected to begin deployment in 2004 or 2005.
China is also developing a modified version of the DF-31, the DF-31A. With an extended range of up to 12,000 kilometers, the DF-31A is sometimes confused with the DF-41, now canceled. Its precise range is unknown. Deployment is predicted to occur between 2006 and 2010. It may replace or supplement the DF-5A. According to the CIA, the DF-31A may be targeted against the United
States and be tested “within the next several years.” With a shorter range and a lighter payload than its predecessor, the DF-31A will be less capable of penetrating a potential U.S. missile defense system.
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marvin- you may like to call it victor’s justice. it’s also called international law, something the japanese gov’t presumably values or they wouldn’t be seeking a seat on the un security council.
just a thought you may want to think about.
http://www.princeton.edu/%7Enanking/html/experts_and_academics.html#PrincetonAcademics
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Hi! I am back again. Just want to say Hi!
Well, I lied. I have questions to all.
First of all, I did not see Yan’s comment since I visited last time. Does anyone know if she is OK? Since the government tightens up the control of internet communication, I hope she is alright.
There are many opinions here in this blog and newspapers that Japanese Government should officially apologize the war crime to China, and possibly to the rest of Asia who suffered by Japanese Aggression in WWII.
Do anyone actually believe the No War Resolution satisfy those concerned Asian governments and its people so that Japanese PM or its delegates will be free from apologizing again and again afterward? I probably know the outcome. However, I would like to know comments from people here.
Hu requested Koizumi to materialize words into actions as he proposed.
Could anyone explain me why Hu did not explicitly request Japan for the Non War Resolution? He said “the Japanese government should regard history as a mirror to reflect its wartime past.” What exactly Hu expect Koizumi to do pertaining to this request? From comments from this blog, I thought China wants No War Resolution most. In Hu’s eye, the further “official” apology has little value to China, hasn’t it? Hu is the head of the state so that he represents China. If he does not need words, then questions come to what China really meant action. He clearly said Japan must not put her nose into Taiwan issue. Mainly Gas field and Textbook are the rest of issues, right? He should have asked Koizumi for compensation to individuals who suffered during WWII even Government-level compensation issue was settled a couple of decades ago if its one of top issue for his people..
I just want to make sure that you know I am not saying Japan shouldn’t apologize. I just want to know if No War Resolution” is necessary at this point of time.
Yoshinori
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Sorry, Hu also mentioned Yasukuni issue without pressing Koizumi too much at the meeting.
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apologise………is there a word in japanese which means to forgive?is there a word in chinese which means to forgive?why is there so much hatred between asian peoples?cant you all see where this vitriolic cancer comes from?the same place it has allways come from,the individuals who rule.you might remember them from the school playground they are the bully’s the ones who pick on the weak the ones who divide and rule.their also the cowards who hide behind parliment and hide behind armys and secret police.there only tallent is to keep stoking the fires of hatred,building the walls of division.dont let them cloud your vision,a true apologie comes after you have forgiven not before.
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I am just surprised to know how well China has suceeded in distorting and fabricating history and thereby creating nationalists even amoung so-called liberals.
From what is written in this blog, Chinese do not seems to know what Chinese has done to Japanese at Tongzhou in1937, what China’s army did to Chinese soldier at Nankgin, how cruel Chinese could be against own people.AS I said before, I’m not blaming.but China also should know the truth and admit it for the present generation.
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David,
I should add,
One who claims the PMs have not “officailly” appologized seems to be unalbe to insist at the same time that the PMs have “officially” visited the shrine.
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Hi! I am fine. Moving house. No Internet. Thanks for participating and asking after me.
I just want to make a comment/statment about free speech that is refered to and directed at me.
First. I retracted that Chie cannot write here in case anyone missed the post. it was probably not the best way forward BUT I retain the right to ban, delete, and have full adminstration powers to this site.
Since Decemeber 1 2003. Glutter has enacted a “Comment Box Policy” due to excessive flame mongers and attacks.
http://glutter.typepad.com/glutter/2003/12/glutter_comment.html
Therefore there is a “contractual” understanding of the users and me. I host the site, feel free to comment but certain things are not tolerated. Such as sexist, racist, bigoted and degrading comments. That is to prevent not only me, but other users from being overly attacked or insulted. Glutter although fight for freedom of expression as a concept. As a site First and foremost aim is that Glutter is a SAFE SPACE for those who want to discuss and talk about concepts and ideas without name calling or being attacked. It was always the idea to talk about contriversal things but maintain a level of decorum.
However I understand that some people will find that problematic, but this goes into “What is free speech?” and how does it work actually in a legal and power dynamics sense?
Free speech is a concept and a right that is (in some countries and well as under the UN charters) a human right that is protected under law. It’s not an idea of “Anyone can say whatever they want because it’s a fact of life” It is very much to do with power, and persecution.
“Saying whatever I want anytime,” is not actually the concept of free speech or even “free country,”. The way I conceieve it as well as use it is I try to stick with the institutional points of what it is.
Institutional = Power = Those who Rule and Represent
NOT normal person. Not even the person who is in the “role” but the role itself (This is important in regards to the currently debate as well)
For example Yelling bad things about someone at their funeral is probably protected by freespeech laws, but does not mean other people don’t have the right and ability to chuck that person out of the place.
More governmentally. Is France a country that is “Autocratic” because it does not allow the sales of Nazi parephenial? America “Autocratic” and Anti free speech because it enacts hate crime laws?
Can we really say those two places are not civil societies because they have certain levels of protection again minorities, people of color, women, or other extreme hate rethoric?
No. We cannot say that because in that society people do have the ability to challenge, disagree and disobey orders without persecution.
By banning certain people (Chie is NOT one of them) is no ways is problematic to free speech because I am not in a position of authority and people can write what they want anywhere else and I will defend their right to do so.
however this is my space, and I can enact any kind of policy I want, because the wider society is indeed “free” and that it is no way autocratic because I am open to be challenged, and open to change my mind which I did. If I was truly blindly autocratic, I would simply delete all the post i don’t like, and refuse to engage in discussion as I have done.
in the case of this debate, the comment box remains open, although I really do think some of the retorhic that is currently being bandied around is VERY problematic. However, under the spirit that unless both sides talk even if we disagree, we might all come to some understanding of where the points of contentions are, and possibly be able to bridge a gap in the future.
However this is an “off side,” to answer any of the questions that was raised regarding my behavoir. Do feel free to continue the current debate.
Thanks/
yan
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