Awaiting a Democratic Hong Kong
If you read the opinions of Editors and commentators, you wouldn’t actually know that the person on the street, the democratic camp in Hong Kong, was generally very proud of the moment of silence for Zhao Zi Yang in Legco which precipitated a walk out of the anti-democratic camp (Let’s stop calling them the pro-government camp shall we??). Everyone I have talked to thought it was fantastic that a segment of our legislator is willing to stand up for what they as well as 60% of the voter population believed in. As I said, mourning Zhao Zi Yang is a symbolic act of defiance.
I didn’t go in and vote in a skewed and non-universal election so that our government could keep control, I voted so I could get as many people who believed what I did in the legislature. And due to the functional constituency along with proportional representative system the people who were supported by majority do not have any real power. Which means, one should at least resort to symbolic acts of protest every so often.
I am really short for time, (computer died, lots to catch up on) otherwise there is a lot more to say. I feel there is a lot of a rebuttal to make against… well, pretty much everybody who has written about this issue. I just want to remind everyone that Hong Kong people didn’t vote in Mr. Leung (long hair) because they believed in the system, people in the Kowloon constituency voted him in because they wanted a protestor in the legislature. We don’t have faith in the system to begin with, which is why we want democracy. So in return to say that the pro-democratic camp didn’t behave accordingly to the system is unacceptable behavior is illogical. I would like for all the commentators who are arguing this is a disgrace to say that about Martin Luther King or Gandhi, as they also used the form of non-violence protest to gain freedom. I am sure they would hesitate, but the arguments they are using are exactly the same as those used against them at the time. History proved otherwise.
It’s time to work out what you believe and make a stand. I know what it is I do, and I think so did those who stood in silence. I wish the editors would stop pussyfooting around the power of China and imaginary global disapproval. Legislators should concentrate on representing the people who voted for them, and do right by Hong Kong. Which they did.
Yan Sham-Shackleton Online 
I for one don’t. I ain’t sure that how many people on the street really support them in this instance. It was a shame that the Legco Chairlady exercised her prerogetive to prevent the Legco from so doing. But it was quite another thing that they defied the ruling to do it regardless. It is sad to me that the democrats are so a bunch of lousy people. If they don’t want to play by the rules for what they think is unjust, Legco is not the right place to do so cos Legco means business. There are so many usual business related to the everyday’s running of HK. You break the rule once, anybody else can break it again. They wish to make themselves heard for their stance that Zhao was worthy of the respect. Okay, why didn’t they observe the one minute’s silence just one minute before the meeting? They wanted to make it symbolic? Okay, couldn’t they do it in front of Rita Fan’s car? Why didn’t they do it on the balcony of the Legco building? Why not lined up at the entrance to the meeting hall just before the meeting and observed the silence? Are there any other smarter way to achieve the same impact without breaking the rules?
Legco is too important to HK to set loose its rules of procedure for meeting. The point is too obvious to require making.
The other camp not returning to the meeting was equally shameful.
I specifically hate Lee Chuk Yan. He is such a awkard brainless naysayer. He was the mastermind behind this incident. Have you ever watched how he debates in the Legco? My granny can do better than he!
Have you heard how he defended for their action on the radio?
If he really had guts and a man of principle, why didn’t he stand firm for supporting the Beijing students on 4 June 1989? Instead, he handed over to the Beijing gongon (police) millions of dollars HK people donated for the students and signed to admit his “wrongdoings” when under police custody in Beijing then. When he arrived at the HK airport, he cried.
Doing monkey tricks in a meeting hall is much safer.
A bunch of lousy political opportunists.
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There’s always two sides to every story, but I do agree with Glutter Girl that the support for the minute of silence is much greater than the media portrays, and that the generally subservient nature of the average Chinese means they so easily let authority dictate what they should believe in. In this case, observing regular protocol suddenly is so significant compared to a what is truly a very important figure who has passed away and for the very least deserves the recognition that was given.
Yes, there probably could’ve been a more appropriate way to show their respect and support for Zhao, but you can say that about almost anything in hind sight. Yes Legco is a place where business needs to get done, but perhaps the symbolic significance of having the moment of silence is greater than one missed day, and please don’t tell me that real work gets done regularly in the Legco anyway. Plus some rules are made to be broken, things aren’t always black and white and you weigh the importance and act accordingly.
At the same time, I absolutely agree that many of these people are as Nevin says a bunch of lousy political opportunists. With the support that they have from the majority of Hong Kong people who are unhappy with the government, they are doing an overall terrible job and listening to some of them speak on TV is indeed a cringe-inducing experience. And yes a lot of them could use a back bone.
But for many the heart’s in the right place and a step in the right direction no matter how it’s taken is good for me.
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I didn’t actually have anything to add to what K said. Now , I had some time to write part of what I was feeling down on the blog. I figure I can then just go, “I agree.”
Just because someone is a lousy politicial or even a person, doesn’t mean I can’t support other things they do. Even if maybe it’s possible they are the most intelligent creatures on the planet. It’s like saying people who don’t fully understand the issues shouldn’t attend protests. Nevin, you sound a little bit like our very favourite Brush Head Regina Ip in this regard. I don’t think you really want to.
One minute is so very very short. All the time wasted had to do with the other side as I recall. Why don’t people give them 8 hours more slack compared with the one minute the Democratic side took? Who is wasting time?
Moreover who gives a shit about Rita Fan and her bad position. She’s just one power hungry, queen of double speak, suck up to power. She was ALL over the colonial government and then switched with a blink of a eye as quick as the second that it took to hand over to China. She consistently denegrated the rights of the poor, immigrants, refugees, supported cutting educational funds in her time in the Hong Kong government. She’s just one cheerleader for hegemonic power but with a good political PR person. Am I the only HK person who damn well remembers her previous incarnation???
yan
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Did I? If Mr Lee Chuk Yan was the Legco Chairperson and refused the pro-Beijing party’s request to observe the one minute’ silence at the meeting as a tribute to the contribution to HK’s “gradual” progress to full democracy of the late Basic Law “guru” Xiao Weiyun, who died recently, and the protagonists did it regardless, then what?
Break a rule and break it strategically. I like how Longhair took his inaugural vow to clearly state his stance without breaking the rules of procedure. That’s really smart, pal.
The least I agree about playing politics is to charge like a bull. Politicians make their political agenda move forward, not JUST (should sometimes though) steamroll things through with fanfare and, even worst, by chanting slogans.
The first few chapters of C Patten’s East Meets West are worth a read for that matter.
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If the story of the other way around. I would simply be very very dissappointed by the democratic side for repressing people’s right to mourn their leader. but if the democratic side was in charge, they would not be putting people under house arrest for 15 years and writing them out of history, and therefore a symbolic moment of protest in the legislature would not be in order. Don’t you agree? it doesn’t cut both ways.
People in China can be mourning all over the place and the press will be able to put that in the front page as much as they would like, if that is the case. You know, like how it was for Hong Kong in the case of Zhao ziyang, instead we have possible scuffles, dissidents under house arrest, and a news blackout.
Further more Chris Patten?? Chris Patten? You’re asking me to take anything that man says seriously? I beg you not!!
A family friend did her thesis on “Did Chris Patten: The last governor used his position to increase his personal political aspirations over the general welfare of Hong Kong people?”
The answer should be a resounding “YES,” and I know for a fact that high up in the previous Colonial government, Secretary of Finance Michael Cartlxnd and another prominant social welfare official i.e. his wife both answered in the affirmative to that question also.
And on top of this. Cheung Mao didn’t come with the idea on this own anyway, certain legco lawyers said certain “hints” in regards to “what you can do, and what you can’t do.” so that he could be inaugurated. So I don’t see why that this moment of silent wasn’t checked out with the legal team before hand. Which is why nothing was done and they weren’t arrested. These people didn’t do this in the blind.
yan
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PS. I just was to add the behavior of legislators within chambers isn’t bound by law, but a simple “gentlemen’s” agreement, therefore the legislators had every “right” to behave that way, under extreme circumstance. Which I personally think this is.
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Once again, the core of my argument is “Break a rule and break it strategically”.
Your last paragraph answers to that. Longhair asked for legal advice and acted out smart, the lousy group asked for it too and did so clumsily. That’s the difference, Yan.
[And they didn’t get arrested was simply because 1) they were at a Legco Meeting and broke the rules of procedure, not the law; and 2) the chairlady adjourned the meeting rather than banished them from the hall (if they remained standing up, maybe they would be ushered away).]
[Successful politicians don’t have to be a man of great honour, do they? I may not vote for them though. C Patten’s book is still worth a read for it gives, however partially, me ideas what were going on under the table for particularly one instance that proved the DP was politically tactless. And the DP guys have not improved much for all these years!]
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No great politicians don’t have to be great men of honor kennedy constantly cheated on his wife, Licoln believed that black men were lesser than white but the union should not be broken up, Mao smoked opium and slept with young girls, King was reported to have beaten his wife, Mandella was a hard partying drinker, Ghandi had his moments of intense arrogance and treated his minions like terribly
They did interesting things for the world and the people who were oppressed. If you can forgive patten you might as well forgive the DP for the failings. They stand for something, they fight for something. You dont’ have to agree but at least it’s personal failings and not political bullshit like Rita Fan. Vote for an independent candidate. Great. Emily Lau isn’t DP. But then she and martin lee had an affair. Do I care? Not really. She’s still smart and honest in her politcal dealings.
yan
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But Nevin, you didn’t mention the fact if the people who were in the DP were in charge, we wouldn’t have to make symbolic protests, because people would be free to express, gather, and protest. Including what you are doing right now. Which is speaking AGAINST them. Which if this was China and you’re doing it to the CCP, we would be banned, deleted and possibly placed under house arrest for simply doing what we’re doing. Don’t you think that’s more important then breaking a few rules? Think about it really hard.
yan
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Yan, your arguement about breaking the rule of procedures, to me, is entangled. I’m not going to elaborate how the issue is connected with the lack of freedoms under the CCP cos we can always argue any point that way without much meaning.
What I wrote was that the lousy bunch did state their stance in a smart way. What I think is that they should because being decent in business is important. The reason why, at least to me, voters get them into the Legco is not JUST to have their political stance clearly displayed. The most important thing is how to get us to full democracy. Now what will the lousy act show apart from stating the stace? Will it be conducive to the legibility and credibility of Legco? If they can think of another way to equally unequivocally state their stance without the same adverse PR impacts(plenty!!), will it be advisable to do it the smart way? Yes.
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Will it make any difference if the DP guys be in the ruling class and call the shots? I doubt. Have you even heard the local common saying that the “the bum decides the consciousness”? That’s why it is important to have a more well thought out fully democratic system. And that’s why it is important for the lousy bunch to grow, go beyond monkey tricks and move the political agenda forward!
They are no kids, and some are learnt barristers. I have much higher hopes.
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I came to the conclusion that you are simply uncomfortable with the idea of civil disobedience and I am not. Some people are frightenned of subversive acts. Some are not. I have nothing more to add.
yan
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That’s what you think, pal. You can’t end a debate like that. That’s very Lee Chuk Yan-style.
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Dude… let me rephrase. I don’t agree with you at all. You say I am not being logical. I feel no need to continue. We’re not even starting in the same place. This is just going to go round and round and not forward. As i said, I believe civil disobedience is a tried and tested way to make a point and a stance. You don’t. You want everyone to play by the rules more than you want people to make a statement. That’s fine. I don’t. 24 other people didn’t, I am with them. You are not. What more do you want?
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That’s what you think, Yan. We can all make a statement…tactfully. There are so many other equally unequivocal ways to do just that in this instance, as I wrote. When we break a rule, we break it to make an impact that achieves something, if not as what Gandhi had achieved. The natural law is that we, as tidal waves, move forward and back again and forward again. There is a right time for these movements. It occurs to me that that was not the right time cos it did not achieve anything significant other than stating a stance. And there is a dimension of making an impact the apropriate way. We don’t need a sickle to put jam on a piece of bread, do we?
Civil disobedience? You may call whatever. But don’t end a debate like Lee Chuk Yan.
I did not call you illogical. But there is actually no strong connection between this issue and, like, the lack of freedoms under the CCP. Have you ever read Dr Lee Tin Ming’s works?
You are like I am here you are there, so don’t talk to me and I am not going to convince you and you not me. I think you are not usually like this.
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Sigh. There is never a “Right Time” You think the white people in the south was going “Yay! These niggers are trying to get what a decent human being deserves!!” Nope. They hated it. And many a black person said it wasn’t “The Right Time.” too. They were called “Uncle Toms,” you think the British was over the moon to lose India, the salt tax and all the economical realities of colonies?? Look they hung onto Hong Kong until it’s last possible historical breathe, and if it wasn’t for the stength in Deng it would never have happenned. Personally I think it’s a positive step that we were decolonized, but it’s time we also fight to keep our rights and freedoms as well as those in the mainland because we have the oppotunity.
Civil Disobedience is not what I want to call it. Civit Disobedience is a concept that’s been around since the last century. If you break a law to prove a point of politics, it’s called civil disobedience. You might not like it, or is uncomfortable with it, but that is what it’s called like it or not. And that is the same tactic used by King and Ghandi, like it or not. It’s not ME. it’s a established theoretical framework I am working with here. I didn’t make it up for my own amusement.
Look this is really really what I think, and I know I am not going to change. I know that in history and theory I am right. I don’t know much about a lot of stuff, really, like economics and trade, but I am confident in my knowledge on social movements, and how that works in a wider context.
I don’t feel the need to change you. If you want to come to see it my way, you will in your own time. If you don’t and never, that’s fine. As long as you give me the freedom to do what I feel is neceessary for me to sleep at night, then all is good. I don’t fight for free speech so I can have my say only. I fight for it so the people I hate also have the right to say what they want. And if people who sometimes agree with me wants to disagree with me, that’s cool too.
And really, that’s the way I have always been. Maybe you just haven’t been on the other end of it before as we nearly always agreed?
Lates
yan
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Yan, that’s more like it. We shall put it to rest, shan’t we?
BTW, you haven’t activated the Gmail invitation for too long and I gave it to another friend of mine cos it may laspe. If you want another invitation, email me.
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Tooooo maaaaaaannnnnyyyyy thiiiingggss toooo dooooooo…. Whhhiiiiiiinnnnnne…
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LOL, I just realized that I’ve 104 gmail invitations left. If any one of you would like to have one, or even ten, feel free to email me.
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