Today is Buddha’s birthday. I means very little to me, much like the real meaning of Christmas means so little to me. What I found really interesting when I got to the west was how people there had no idea how corrupted, money orientated, fearful, superstitious the various forms of Buddhism in Asia can be.
They hold it in some form of mystical view, guard it with respect, and feel maybe this religion is different from the Church and hold it in higher regard. It’s not, learnt this the hard way from being in Laos and was disappointed. Now, when I go to a temple, I visit it the same way I visit a church in Italy. I look at its beauty, I am in awe of its history and size, respectful of the people who believe in it, and do not forget the good things religious people do and know much like everything else, the ideas and tenants of the original religion was generally good, we can all learn from yet very aware the execution leaves a lot to be desired. It’s full of petty rivalry, run like a business, and makes some people rich and powerful.
It’s just not what my friends in the US think it is at all. A monastery is exactly like a church. It’s the same thing completely. And there is a whole load of people in Asia who questions, sees the corruption of the original ideals and reject it much the same way people in the west reject Christianity, it’s just not half as romantic as it’s made out to be.
Yan Sham-Shackleton Online 
You said it Yan.
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Most Americans’ sole education on world culture comes from movies and television. In the fairy-tale world of Hollywood, Buddhism is generally portrayed as a mythical Asian philosophy, full of far east wisdom and value.
Fed such nonsense, many believe the stylized, fictions they see.
Buddhism’s like any other organized religion: a complete sham; a self-perpetuating facade of morality. Some societal good may come from religious teachings, but from a rational point of view they’re silly.
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It’s the fact that spirituality and religion are separate ideas – and therefore words.
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orientate : NO
orient : YES
disorient / disoriented : YES
disorientate / disorientated : NO
Similarly,
converse : YES
conversate : NO
Sorry. The proliferation of these incorrect grammatical forms disturbs me and causes me to become disorientATEed to the point where it inhibits my ability to converseATE.
I hope my meaning here is not misconscrewed.
-dredeyedick 😉
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What are you saying? Do Buddhist nations start wars in the name of their religion? Do Buddhist religious leaders hinder fighting disease like the Catholic church does by opposing condoms? Do the organisations behind Buddhist monestaries protect peadophile monks? Do buddhists accuse people of witchcraft and kill them in public? Does Buddhism forbid women to work? Does it codemn them to a life indoors or only allow them out completely covered?
I think the idealisation of Buddhism does not come from the fact that it’s perfect, but from the fact that it looks so much better compared to the other religions we have. It’s a relative thing.
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Herald, I think her point was that there is a disparity of perception between most westerners (I think Yan was referring to her American friends, in particular) and Asians who encounter Buddhism in practice on a regular basis; and that the “idealized” perception of Buddhism doesn’t comport with reality. And I emphatically agree.
And I guarantee that Americans’ idealization of Buddhism does not stem from “it looking so much better compared to other religions we have.” They’re not well enough informed as to the relative benefits.
Most get stylized, hyped and often incorrect information from Hollywood and television.
Step off the soapbox and read what she wrote a little more closely. It’s very clear that you’re off point.
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Definitely agree with you on that Yan. Not a great fan of religious doctrine and I’ve found since being here that Asian religion doesn’t get a instapass to the path of spiritual superiority.
But comparing Western religion with Eastern religion is not quite as simple as you put it. Although it is funny how there seems to be a commonality that there is this idea that if I do X for divine entity, then divine entity will grant me benefits galore.
Anyway, Catholic Church remains one of the most powerful institutions on the planet because of the money they’ve amassed over the years. And let us not forget that many triad supposedly have historical connections to religious orders and political movements. Go figure.
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I agree with the growing corruption of buddhism and commercialization. More than ever, the vision of buddha’s teaching are misrepresentated and blurred.
Among the Tibetan buddhists, buddhism is not truly understood and it is contrived with lots of superstition and beliefs in gods, demigods and demons. The tibetan masses practices a form of buddhism which is mixed with their earlier bon religion and many improvisations.
If we understand the true teachings of buddha, it could benefit us to reduce stress, do yoga and massage and meditation, And conservation, sustaninable development. I doubt if I we could attain enlightenment or nirvana.
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Buddhism is NOT an Asian religion and Christianity is NOT a Western religion. And religion is not part of any culture, at least not anymore. Look, I was born and grew up in Asia, and Christianity is the religion I grew up with. I went to a Christian school since pre-school, and most of my classmates were born Christian.
Most Westerners have only come to know Buddhism and other so-called Asian religions in recent years; but we Asians have known Christianity for at least a thousand year. We don’t romanticize Christianity, we don’t need to. Most of us were born to know Jesus.
Religion is a sensitive topic; so, I guess I better shut up now.
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Religions are made up of people. Fragile people with flaws. Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism… I’ve met people from those religions whom I would not want to share a dinner table with, and I’ve also met people who are remarkable, who make me stop to think carefully about my notions of what faith and service mean.
Do we tend to see Buddhism as somehow more spiritual? Perhaps. It’s a mass media thing. It’s not going to go away until we get to the stage where we’re familiar with the Orient. And by Orient I’m not talking about Said’s constructed Orient, I’m talking about the Orient that is palpably real: corrupt, full of things both magnificent and terrible, things to lift your spirits and things to drown you in disgust. In short, the human Orient.
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Yes, Christianity has existed in Asia for centuries. But hasn’t there been a pretty dramatic boom over the last three decades or so? And hasn’t that boom more or less coincided with the emergence of the westernized middle class, first in the “miracle economies” and now in mainland China?
Is it really implausible to suggest that the trend goes hand in hand with glamorization of western lifestyles? It would be surprising if there wasn’t a connection — evangelical movements have always been deeply intertwined with Anglo-American capitalism. Henry Ford, the business ethic, American individualism, the nuclear family — full to the gills with scriptural language/ideas.
I’m really sorry if my earlier comment was off base, inflammatory or tactless — no offense was intended. Religion is an even more sensitive topic than politics. Maybe I’m still miffed about the last time we went to a Chinese community church, where the guest preacher spent a half hour giving a Bush campaign speech.
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I am with Adrian on this.. Middle Class “educated” Chinese are most often those who converted, partly because the schools and education were provided by Christain groups. And people who converted do think it’s a less superstitious religion compared to buddhism, while those in the west do see Buddism as a less violent and corrupt religion (see Harald’s post). Mainly it’s exotic and a different “way” to anyone who is rejecting what the dominant paradigm of their historical thought process. You can’t deny that Asian culture is constructed through buddism and western culture is constructed through christainity and the flow of those ideas have everything to do with colonialism and mass media.
And until the day we all have a “real” idea of what the west is like as well as we know the East as Lashar said, both sides will continue to both dispise and place on the pedalstool of the aspects of each culture rather than simply seeing each as a way of being.
Asians do glamourize the West and Western people do exoticize the east. As the former seek the material goods and luxury value of the west’s productions and the west looks to Asia for a different way of womanhood, brotherhood, and spirituality.
Yan
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I’m not quite sure how exactly “Asians have known Christianity for a thousand years”. Me thinks it’s probably closer to two or three hundred years.
In any case, Christianity is an institution of control and power. It has been that way since it lost it’s way just under 2000 years ago. Constantine converted his side of the Roman Empire to the religion to secure the support of a large Christian population in his borders. In turn, those early Christians happily decided to do away with those pacifist tendancies that should be at the heart of Christian idealogy.
So essentially, the Roman Empire simply changed its name to the Roman Catholic Church. And they’ve been dictating the course of European history since probably 1000 years ago. Under them, Christianity has been a religion of conquest, control and subjugation. I’m not being inflammatory, but it’s there in the history books.
Today, of course, Christianity provides comfort to many and does some genuinely good work. And without sounding too patronizing, I find Asian Christians perhaps closer to living the original meaning of Christ’s teachings than Europeans. Europe has seen two millenia of religious conflict, hatred, and historical wranglings as part of it’s religious collective conscience.
In any case, I believe that any religion is rife to exploitation by those who wield the power over something as intangible as faith. Perhaps we can credit the Americans for one thing at least and that is the formation of a non-secular state where religion and state are separated.
And I’m not bashing Christianity, being a Christian myself. The only difference is that I’ve maybe gotten to where I am now through my own spiritual journey rather than having what I should believe laid out to me by the religious dogma of a church whose clergy were formed up by the elite ruling classes of Europe and beyond.
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Said didn’t construct the Orient, strictly speaking. He pointed out that it was already a construct, and nothing more than that. And that does cut to the heart of the matter here, doesn’t it – Americans (read, Westerners?) often perceive Buddhism in a very Orientalist sense: exotic, mysterious, a pure Eastern antidote to their disillusionment with Christianity. They are well aware of the historical realities of the Christian church: the crusades, the inquisitions, the corrupt priests and the hypocritical preachers. But because they don’t know very much about Buddhism, it doesn’t sink in to them that Buddhism too has schisms, iniquities and failings, Japanese warrior monks and all that. As Said said, an Orientalist mindset is reductive, wont to see things as polarised, ahistorical, essential. The first step to understanding the Orient is to realise that there is no Orient. Orient only means non-Western.
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The Orient means “Of the east,” which is always amusing when used in the US because “the East” from the west coast is the American landmass and from the east coast it’s then Europe. Asia on the other hand is actually “West.” If that simple fact of geography doesn’t already point to a construct that is applied wrongly, and no doubt out of date I don’t know what does… :). If we simply think of what image the word “Orient” conjures up, it will point to the exoticization of Asia. Even I when thinking of the “orient” can come up with images that has nothing to do with my every day reality, so strong the assosiation of the word is to something unknown. The word so needs to be shelved for a clearer and newer picture of Asia to emerge.
This is the book certain people are referencing in regards to this topic.
Orientalism by Edward W. Said
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In a slightly different vein but also starting to touch upon the idea of Orientalism, is that India is able to get away with the horrors it inflicts on it’s people without much question and the “western” media buys into the official country line. Some of you might have something interested to add to that conversation.
http://glutter.typepad.com/glutter/2004/05/india_china_and.html
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Some take offence at the term “oriental”. I asked someone about this once and they said it’s a term the colonialists used, so hence a negative connotation.
Growing up in the UK, we always referred to people who were South East, North, East Asian as being orientals. Asians were people from India and Pakistan. Although the Persian were once considered orientals.
I guess it’s just another term in a whole line of terms that strips away your own identity.
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all religion is about control.to exploit humanfrailty is ummm human.corruption will allways go hand in hand with religion and any institution that controls people,money and power.the budda and christ must cry at the atrocities done in both their names.
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Yes, indeed. What I should have said, regarding Said, was “The constructed Orient that Said exposed for what it was.” (I’m thinking that he was the first to really probe that area in any great detail, but feel free to correct me if you know of anyone else working on that prior to Said.)
Regarding 1,000 years of Christianity… Perhaps if one includes the minor Nestorian Christian sects (who would likely be considered heretical by most good Roman Catholics and probably by most other Christians) then one could say approximately a thousand years. But otherwise, I’d have to say that really, Christianity in the Far East (as opposed to SE Asia) would be closer to around 400 years old at the max.
And the construction of the mysterious, exotic Orient was what I was trying to express: the sense that the Orient is where pure spirituality can be found, where it’s all retreat and contemplation and meditation and inner peace. Or something to that effect.
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About the term “oriental” it’s one that probably does conjour up an “exotic” image in westerners minds. Personally I blame advertising, I’ve seen this ad on TV for some kind of “asian” instant dinner complete with exotic (stereotypical) “asian” music playing in the background (i’m amazed someone didn’t bang a gong at the end of the ad). Movies play a big part too. I agree with Eshin above who said “it’s just another term…that strips away your own identity,” I’ve never been to the “exotic far east” (or north actually where i’m writing from in Oz) but it’s obvious from the people who write here and from asians i’ve met that “asians” and “orientals” are individuals too with their own legitimate thoughts, feelings and struggles.
I guess the trouble comes when you idealise something too much whether it’s religion or politics. Religion is always a touchy subject and I know very little about buddhism, and i’m not a religous person but it does seem to be viewed as trendy and hip when compared to the others and I think Christianity probably does get a raw deal at times in the media, although it does plenty to shoot itself in the foot too.
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Everything was heretical for the Roman Catholics. Anything that challenged the power of Rome was deemed a threat. It’s amazing how peope forget that it’s Roman Catholicism and that the very name pays tribute to a supposedly long dead empire.
No doubt the largest Filipino church, (I think the United Filipino Church) would be considered heretical in it’s practices by the Catholic Church. One wonders too whether the promise of a better life in the hereafter has something to do with that.
I also agree with the comments about Christianity tending to take a hold on the middle class Chinese. Call me cynical, but for many it’s part of the glamour package of the West for some. In Hong Kong, I suspect it’s part of this identity battle that goes on.
The lower class HK Chinese probably are more pervasively empathic to traditional Chinese values. That, or they either didn’t care either way and just continued practicising what they were.
The middle class and the upper classes, have had more exposure to Western ideals, culture and religion. I think they were also more accutely aware of the need to establish an identity being faced with the influences of two different cultures – Western and Chinese. In the last twenty years, this has become more important as HK’er attempt to establish their own idenity which is different from the mainland.
One differentiator is probably the use of religion. Christianity, being part of the Western package, is (IMO, unfairly) cosmopolitan. Buddhism is old-fashioned and superstitious. So hence I think that is why Christianity has taken a hold for many middle class who are trying to establish their own identity. If one thing can be said about Christianity, it not only does a great sell job to the downtrodden, but also is prone to elitism.
And in retrospect, I suspect Hong Kong has only experienced Christianity for just over 150 years or so. Before then there probably weren’t a lot of people to do much worshipping of anything.
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I came upon this website when I typed in
democratization of buddism in the west.
I am farily new to buddism, coming to it some
6 years ago when several friends at uc berkeley committed suicide. I needed a way
to understand this… because these events cracked open my heart, and buddist philosophy gave me many tools to help recover from this.
Nothing in my Christian upbringing helped.
I became a certified chinese medical practitioner here in the u.s. It was never
said that we had to study buddism, nor that
we needed to meditate. But you find out
very quickly that these things help your
medical practice, and in fact, are essentail.
Buddism offers us many many tools, for health
and well being.
That said, I have now also seen what it is
to be on the inside of a buddist organization
here in the west. I have in fact, seen
many of the problems of which we have
spoken here.
Oddly enough, just now, I happened on
a book reading on the history of buddism
in the west, “Shoes Outside the Door”.
It is a narrative about the community
of the SF Zen Center. It talks about
all the internal difficulties that occured,
lawsuits, punitive silence, the exclusion
of the women from power, etc.
The difficulties there came to a peak
in 1983, and the center moved away from
traditional easter organizational power
structure to that of democracy, in order
to avoid these problems… so that each
person could have a voice, so that each
person could be a teacher. I don’t know
how well this is working since I did not
read the book.
Thanks for this discussion. Has anyone
read this book? It talks a lot about
the challenges of bringing buddism to
the west.
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I haven’t read the book, but it’s interesting how that the organization got democratized in SF, (of course!) and that the organization brings in different ideas in order to minimize the problems of traditional power structure. Buddist doctrines are as you said, helpful and thoughtful in many respects, and much like you said, that intrinsic human problems of organization and structure still plagues the writing. Like everything there is the word and there is the reality. Often, used by others for their own means, look at what’s happenning to Muslim religion today.
Yan
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