Social Political Rants
This Easter I realized that it’s not that I don’t believe in god. I truly feel there is a greater force than myself and each person. It’s just that I refuse to have anything to do with religion and definitely will never convert the Christianity.
And much like my relative who tried to sell it to me this weekend, who made a commitment to god that she would serve him in this life time which I find honorable, I have also made the same commitment not to ever be part of any organized religion nor believe in some historical and social development of power that is shielded behind the innate human need of spirituality.
She said it made her so sad and it hurts her to know I will never believe and I could never understand her pain over that fact. I told her I did because it makes me sad and that it hurts me that she is going to spend her whole life without find herself and know what she thinks outside of living for something that someone told her about.
I don’t think she ever realized that as frustrated as she is over those of us that don’t believe, people like me in turn has the equal and returned sentiments of those who do, especially when they try and sell us.
She may feel a pain someone she loves will go to hell, I feel the pain of someone I love thinks there is one.
Yan Sham-Shackleton Online 
You hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. I’m an agnostic, but that may as well mean I’m an atheist to my religious friends and family. It also makes me too religious in my atheistic friends’ eyes. What’s wrong with wanting to find an alternative to all of this madness? It’s like “Either you’re Christian or you’re not” and I feel like “Great– such a plethora of choices…”
Good post.
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“…living for something that someone told her about.”
Maybe she thinks she’s living for the truth (divine) rather than some idea a person came up with?
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Personally, I like people with ideals and beliefs, but I hate people who try and force them on others. I myself, believe that there are probably things greater than ourselves; I look around while walking down a crowded street, I look up at the night sky and I can’t help but just believe it. BUT that being said, I’m what you’d call religious – not even in the least bit.
I suppose, it’s rather predictable (and understandable) that many people prefer a life under the preset ideals/principle of another group. There’s safety in a sense this way. It’s a choice you make where the goal (enlightenment/truth/etc.) and the steps up to it are relatively clear, a place where the path is well worn. People who believe likewise reaffirm your commitment and may lighten your spirits along the way.
But, I guess that’s just one of many routes. To me, Life takes on no more grandiose a purpose than of simply the experience of life itself, in all it’s forms, come what may. To experience the sometimes subtle, sometimes flashy cues that define life for yourself; to say that it you did it all for yourself. As far as I’m concerned, the words ‘life’ and ‘adventure’ are one and the same. And whether far in the future that means looking back on the memories with sadness or with joy – in the end, and at the very least, I can say “this was my life, and this is how I lived it” with no regret.
Maybe I’m naive. But that’s good enough for me.
(p.s. I don’t have time to write something else of my own for tonight, so I’ll repost this there and give you a trackback)
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crap! on the last sentance of the first paragraph, i meant to say “I’m NOT what you’d call religious” … hope that didn’t spoil it 😦
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On Living life
I originally posted this up as a comment on Glutter’s post here. I went on for a while so I thought I’d post it up here too 🙂 ~~~~~~ Personally, I like people with ideals and beliefs, but I hate
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“To me, Life takes on no more grandiose a purpose than of simply the experience of life itself,”
Hear, hear. That’s exactly how I view it. She asked me if I ever thought about what happens after I die. I told her I don’t really care, I will find out when I get there, for now I have LIFE to contend with.
Seriously? I think we dissappear after we die. We live on in the memories of those who are alive, we live on by our impact on the lives of those we know, and maybe raised and we live on through the genetic chain if we have children. That’s about it. I am simply not important enough to need to be here for eternity.
And it really really pissed me off when I was threatenned with hell. Well if “God is Love” as she said, it would seem rather arrogant and vengeful if there was eternal damnation and personally I truly DO NOT believe there is a hell, so whether I believe in the Christain God or any other religion is pointless. And IF there is one, then well I will be rather proud and pleased that I did not spend any more time than I have in this life believing and worshiping a rather uncompassionate god or religion because as I see it, it’s bunk.
That’s that. I am a non-believer. I am not an atheist because I believe there is something there, I am not agnostic because I am not hedging my bets either way. I don’t think the words of religion and prophets have anything to do with god, just smart men and women who did some interesting and amazing things in their life time, and that people construe that to be bestowed by god because the paradigm of the time lacked ways to discuss individuality.
I am a non-believer, of religion, of power, of governments, patriotism and whatever thought people force down my throat either way. It seems to piss people off for some reason, coz you know they spend so much time trying to be part of that, or invested in that because it means that it takes them out of mediocrity. To be part of something bigger so their ordinary life would be of the winning side. You know what? We’re all boring, we’re all not that special, when you look at how big the universe is, we’re ALL tiny and insignificant. Accept that, deal with that, and just live our life, and know at the end of it, the only person who we have to answer to is ourselves, and whether one feels one wasted the time tha one had or not and not fill every second with some made up purpose of “Living for God in my heart every moment” so one can die without regret. Try living for humanity, making it a bit better in whatever capacity you can, or living for yourself as best you can. That’s how I view it, it’s just a way to make oneself feel better in the ever confusing, frustrating, and somewhat frightenning world. Religion trades on fear, and it perpetuates fear. I am not going to hell because there isn’t one.
Yan
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God does not blog, so may I defend for Him:
It is a mistake to assume than I am interested only, or even chiefly, in religion. Actually, I have no religion, notably not “forced” religion. Are you debating about religion, or “religious” people, or Me?
First thing first. Facts and logics, if you don’t mind.
This is from Nevin:
Yan, you sound pretty sure about your conviction. just as when you said you would move to Mainland China not long before. How sure are you this time?
And pketh, do Christians walk on a stereotyped well worn path without adventures nor lives, saddness nor joys? You may not have made too many Christian acquaintances.
Sex, there are a hell lots of choices out there. Make wise ones coz if you choose God, you will be kept away from other choices. (Wow, I want your version of the bible coz mine doesn’t tell me exactly that.)
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Yan,
The way you describe your relative, it definately seems like she is forcing her religion on you, no doubt. But she’s only doing it because she cares, however, her method is pushing you away from her faith. Do you think it is the faith itself that you do not agree with? Or is it your friend’s pestering about salvation and damnation that’s bothering you?
When you say you’re a non-believer in religion, government, power, etc, are you saying that you are anti-institutional? Other people get upset at this because the same people who say they’re against these things don’t mind reaping the benefits from them.
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Ah. But the reason I decided I do not want to move to China is that until recently I did not realize the absolute power the Chinese government was trying to excert over the people as well as those outside. So now I know and understand that in a personal way, I decided not to partake.
However I do understand that absolute power of God in not only the christain religion but others as well, and you know that kind of structure really urks and annoys me. So if there was indeed a hell I would say, all those people who are stuck in it probably needs to do some organizing and dissenting to bit by bit errode the power of god so “he” no longers has all of it to judge, condemn and bestow.
It’s never good to have one power in charge and even less if it’s sorta a person, (as we are made in his imaaage), even if it’s sorta spread between the spirit, his son and him. Nepotism = Bad way of transferance of power.
The bible is a good book, and interesting read, and has some smart stories in it that does indeed points at the failings of humanity and ways to avoid it. Much like great “Historic Novels” that are part based on fact, and partly embellished by it’s authors it’s a good read and begets good block buster movies, I hear.
yan
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Jessica,
I am beginning to feel that you are on a path to start pestering me about your religion and as I said, I don’t apreciate it. I am happy to allow you to feel what you want about a faith I do not believe in, but I am not about to start preaching or questioning why you feel those things here or on your blog. Get it?
In fact, I am starting to believe I should take on the same role as christains do to non-believers and BECAUSE I CARE I should start explaining why worshiping a god and believing in hell and heaven and whatever is detrimental to oneself, and that you all should start thinking for yourselves because it’s far far too easy to gain a superior attitude because you get up and go to church and put a bit of god in your heart.
I simply don’t believe in those things as they are and that there is always room for improvement. The fact “people” take whatever is handed to them without questioning and reaping the benitifits of it without thinking of the impact pisses me off.
Sure we all live in this society so we all have to live with the rules. It’s reality. But I mean I don’t think it’s okay to say, buy a pair of expensive sneakers and also know that some kid is not getting and education so that you can get it is okay and not give a shit. People need to start realizing that “as is” is not really good enough. That’s what I mean when I said, “Don’t believe in” Maybe I should say, “I don’t buy that’s the right way.”
You can buy into what you want. I might disagree. But surely I would not try and change you under the guise of “I care” because it just means, “I care about you so therefore I think you should go my way.” I think religion turns me off far on it’s own and when people start selling it to be, it just annoys me more and proves to me once again that it causes dissension between people when none was there in the first place.
Yan
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yan,
Just for fun, I’ve always kinda liked to image reincarnation – but regardless of what happens I think it’s important to leave your mark in any way you can. Like you said, there’s genetics and memories, but you’ve also got the whole writing thing and I guess I’m still looking for my way.
I think this quote is particularly fitting with the whole argument…
“So long as any large group of persons, anywhere on this earth, believe the ancient superstition that some Authority is responsible for their welfare, they will set up some image of that Authority and try to obey it. And the result will be poverty and war.”
Do you have ‘Jehovah’s witnesses’ in HK? Basically the religious equivalent of door-to-door salesmen. They’re often seen knocking on houses and trying to convert the ‘heathens’/occupants. Annoying as hell – but I can never tell any of them off because they’re usually pretty old and I’m not that mean 😦
(btw: It’s pretty trippy to imagine that long after we’re dead, everything we’ve written here will continue to exist pretty much indefinitely as digital data for future generations.)
anyways, getting back on topic..
Nevin,
umm.. where to begin..?
Actually, I have lots of christian friends and they’re all very interesting people – Fortunately, none prattle on about religion.. which kinda makes sense: If they did, we probably wouldn’t be friends.
Nowhere did I say that the life of a Stereotypical christian was boring or emotionless. We’re all people, with a brain and limbs like all the rest; we all have the capacity to believe what we want and live that way based on our own choices. Hell, I didn’t even allude to that. Granted I’m no theologian, All I said was that the path of religiousness (or christianity in this case) is a path well traveled (which it is, by millions if not billions). I also said that as a result of this their is plenty of support for those on the same path (ie: church sermons, etc).
And if that means it’s lifeless and emotionless than those are your words not mine.
Sheesh.
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Yan,
I can’t understand why you feel I’m going to pester you about my religion, especially since I don’t have one. You think that I’m your average Protestant Christian trying to convert you to save your soul. Well I’m not, and I don’t appreciate being treated negatively if I was. You say that you don’t like being badgered for being a non-believer of your relative’s religion, then why do you badger believers? Do you think they like that??
I wasn’t trying to tell you what she was saying was correct, right, or the truth. In fact, if she had a blog and was complaining about you being a non-believer and saying all this stuff, then I’d tell her pretty much the same thing. I’ve heard the arguments of believers and non-believers before, and I think a lot of the dispute is over people not understanding the other side at all.
Do you think you know everything about Christianity? Does your relative know everything about why you’re a non-believer. No. And you wouldn’t be so upset over this and hyper-sensitive to other peoples comments if you knew more. The “care for you” approach is used by both believers and non-believers alike, it’s nothing new.
I thought the comment feature was for discussion/questions, but if it’s just for people to agree with what you say, you shoud indicate that before hand. I was unaware of this policy.
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—- “I care about you so therefore I think you should go my way.”
But what’s wrong with it, Yan? I mean, when you wrote here that you were moving to China, bloggers tried to talk you down. And you didn’t say pissed off by that I-care-about-you-so-go-my-way attitude. Isn’t that just a very human way of respondence?
So, what’s wrong really with that attitude if you feel all right about that in some cases but not others?
But no, my bible doesn’t say patronising is the way and tell people to convert or else. I don’t take on that attitude.
pketh’s friends are right not to prattle on about God all the time if they do live up to the belief and show by examples (and prattle on about God at the definitive moment; so watch out pketh).
Good examples are rare though while a good many believers do piss you off. You can always see for yourself before you are so sure about a change / no-change, haha, Yan.
And you sounded like my hardcore atheistic father-in-law who finally gave in: I think we dissappear after we die. We live on in the memories of those who are alive, we live on by our impact on the lives of those we know, and maybe raised and we live on through the genetic chain if we have children. That’s about it.
Is this a theory or a causal comment? There must be a book about that in bookshops coz I have heard this so very often.
I have this very interesting gut feeling that you will change, Yan.
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i have a lot of run-ins with relatives like that and i never did found a way to ethically tape their mouth down with a ductape. L yoga is good for learning how to block the noises – get into a pose on the floor and concentrate on nothing while she talks, soon the noise will fade. L Sex is right; u hit the nail on the head with that last sentence.
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Jessica: Actually came back on to say I think I over reacted and that you should just ignore my reply to you, coz in my head I was like “No more god talk” coz I had about five hours of it the other night. You have every right to question me, and in fact you did it in a way that was totally fair. And I agree with what you said about if I wanted total agreement I should just say so first, because this is a discussion forum. Me bad.
However I was a pretty big believer for about the first 16 years of my life and one day I just realized I didn’t believe because as I grew so much of what was saying, was antithises to how I felt we should treat each other. I made quite a big decision for myself to give that up. So yes, I do understand a lot about the christain religions in terms of being both catholic and converted to protestantism and then eventually an athesist and then just realizing I don’t believe in religions at all while still thinking there is something bigger than me out there. I just didn’t like the way it was described as what I can see and feel no longer fitted that one book.
Nevin, actually I never read anything about “How to see where I go before I die” I pretty much came to that conclusion myself in the last few years. It changes, where I see we go. I used to believe in reincarnation, and then now I don’t. Then I believed in Karma, and now I don’t really because I think it’s the consequences of our actions that adds up to our legacy. I think Pketh is right, the way I see it is, if I have something interesting enough to say, maybe one day I will write a book and if that lasts, and people read it after I die, well cool.
I live on but no I don’t believe in the eternal spirit of ME. I believe we are all pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of the universe. Maybe more and more people believe in what I believe because we are influenced by the discourse of science, and collectively we come to the same conclusions with the facts we read.
I honestly don’t think I will convert back to christainity. Hell, heaven, ressurection, worship. NO. But as I said, I don’t disregard that there is something far greater than us, cross culturally, there has never been a culture logged in the world that there is NO spiritaul believe of some kind.
But how each person and culture than reinterprets it and teaches its young. I mean we are only talking about a Christain context here. I feel pretty much the same things about the ancester worship tri-culture of Chinese, Muslim religions, and even buddism. Each of those things is just a reinterpreation of something, none of them are as set in stone as they are made out to be.
I don’t think I will change in terms of NEVER joining a religion. There are far too many to choose from, it’s just better to have one’s own relationship with the universe and live the life you have at hand.
Yan
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Grace and peace to you Yan! WOW, sounds like something was stirred up over Easter weekend.
I have been praying for you lately since you spoke of your depression. May the great love of God be revealed to you Yan in the face of Jesus Christ.
Like your relative I am also sad for the way you are thinking, but only because I truly found myself in Him, and wish that you knew this joy also.
Keep in touch,
Brother Barnabas
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geez, nothing like religion to get a discussion started!
Personally i’m not a religous person, grew up in a vaguely protestant environment but never went to church. Never really believed in it. I think you can be a good person without adhering to a particular religion. That’s what gets to me, that people who follow a religion closely usually think that they are right and everyone else is wrong, no questions asked. And it all descends into an Us Vs. Them argument over something some dude wrote down a couple of thousand years ago.
No doubt some religous people are good, understanding people but there is an element to them that I find scary in that they don’t ask too many questions.
Whatever a person believes i think is up to them but personally I think it would be better if people opened their minds and decided to just get along with each other the best they can (god, that sounds really naive doesn’t it?).
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Mike,
Just to set the record straight, I am a Protestant and had served as a deacon for three years and have been asking a whole lot of questions about many things in my life. As a matter of fact, I ask so many questions that I sound like a cocky naysayer. I yelled to my God when I felt miserable in difficulties. I questioned Him. Hmmm, some of the believers don’t ask a lot of questions, don’t dare to question God about the quagmires they are mired into, don’t fume when they are angry. So don’t some of the non-believers. If people are scary for not asking too many questions, there must be reasons in it but my bible just doesn’t tell exactly a rule about not to ask too many questions.
Am I right or were you wrong?
And Yan, I heard you. We shall see.
Nevin ;}
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i’m no theologist and i don’t claim to be. it’s a life-long pursuit. but here’s how i see things. no religion is perfect. no religion is right. they are subject to social, political and cultural changes which prove that beliefs and practices change due to more than the words in the bible.
(if killing is a sin, how come bible-bashing presidents send men off on expeditionary military campaigns in foreign lands? hell must be very crowded.)
i believe in jesus, although i support the view that he was more of a political threat than a matyr for our collective sins. he was a philosopher and an activist. i believe in the existence of a higher force, although it may not be god as we conceive him or her. i try not to judge others on the basis of religion, although i am ignorant of many other peoples’ beliefs. i try not to impose my relgious will on others, either. after all, what makes me so fking right?
i used to reject all religion, mainly because of a reaction to the sins and criminality of organised religion. however, i’ve come to realise that there are benefits to be gained from obeying the ten commandments as well as treating others as you would have them treat you. this doesn’t mean i’m perfect or a good christian. i’ve sinned. but i would rather choose to be judged by the dude upstairs than by a dodgy priest racked with sexual frustration and a fixation on water and wine.
i’m not saying the beleifs i have now are fixed or right. they will probably change. however, i aim to respect others, treat them with compassion and combat the urges and forces within me that can turn me into an arsehole. i’ll greet you with a handshake, a smile or a hug and i’ll seek to understand you if i can’t agree with you.
i am human. i am weak. i sin. i constantly seek personal redemption on a spiritual level. i’ll be judged when the times comes.
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i just want my foreskin back
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Never talk about Politics and religion among friend eh? I never learn… ;P
Yan
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Nevin, hi,
I guess what I meant was the more fundementalist attitude of SOME religous people that scares me a little, and its not just religion but politics and other areas that I guess everyone clings to in some way or another.
I like how you say you asked a lot of questions and you’ve obviously found answers that have helped you. I don’t want to sound like a “cocky naysayer” and I espect peoples belief as I’ve had a few very religous friends in the past. Personally i’ve asked questions at times aswell, I just haven’t recieved the same answers you might have. I might very well be wrong but i’ll guess I’ll find out eventually! 🙂
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Hello, Finn
Sinning and Jesus:
—(if killing is a sin, how come bible-bashing presidents send men off on expeditionary military campaigns in foreign lands? hell must be very crowded.)
I don’t claim to totally get your points nor aspire to refute you. But let’s say if you have a son and he somehow kills somebody else, I don’t think I will or should jump the gun on the conclusion that you have taught something bad to him or you are bad or really your son is worse.
—i am human. i am weak. i sin. i constantly seek personal redemption on a spiritual level. i’ll be judged when the times comes.
This conviction is very true to a lot of believers too. My bible doesn’t tell that anyone as long as he or she is human must be totally sin- and weakness-proof even when he or she is converted. Not a requirement but a goal. Understandably, tweaking does take a process and time.
Bashed by Christians:
—i’ll greet you with a handshake, a smile or a hug and i’ll seek to understand you if i can’t agree with you.
I regret if you have met Chirstians who don’t act like what you have written here. Believers or not, I think we should all be brave enough to discord without confrontation. But beleivers or not, I think some may only know how to confront. There must be reasons in it yet Christianity may not necessarily has something to do with that.
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— I think some may only know how to confront.
some people are simply bullies who want to throw their weight around.
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